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So I've decided that it'd probably be a good idea to migrate from Shooty Chaos (5-man las/plas being no longer possible) to Mechanized Chaos (what? Standard marines with BP & CCW). Here's my current list, and I'm looking for opinions on how to make it better.

HQ:
Chaos Lord, Terminator Armour, Mark of Khorne, Daemon Weapon - 155 points

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, 2x Dread CCW, 2x Combi-Bolter - 100 pts
Chaos Terminators, 1 Reaper + Powerfist, 1 Combi-Melta + Chainfist, 1 Combi-Flamer + Power Weapon, carrying the Icon of Khorne, Terminator Champion /w 2x lightning claws - 230 (IIRC) points

Troops
2x Chaos Space Marines, 7x BP+CCW+Bolter, 2x Meltagun, 1x Champion /w Powerfist. Mounted in a Rhino - 245 points per squad

Heavy Support
Defiler - 150 points
Defiler - 150 points
Land Raider /w Combi-bolter - 225 points

Current usage is the Defilers hang back a bit with their battlecannons, the Marines advance in rhinos before popping out to shoot with pistols and meltas and then assault, the terminators ride in their armoured taxi before popping out to lay waste to all who oppose them. (which sounds really good, but doesn't work when deep striking.)

why hang back with the defiler these days? don't they have fleet or something now?
Also a chaos sorcerer with lash of submission is amazing as well as the ability WarpTime. I highly recommend considering these two options.

I'm guessing because he has plenty of forward hidden PFists, but nothing that can replicate the effect of the battle cannon. I think Defilers can work just as well hanging back as charging forward.

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So your plan is to stuff ~400 points of models into a 200+ point transport that can be stopped by a stunned result? Might want to rethink that. Frankly, your list as it is now would be auto-lose against any SAFH.

iPosted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/09/2007 9:59 AM
I'm guessing because he has plenty of forward hidden PFists, but nothing that can replicate the effect of the battle cannon. I think Defilers can work just as well hanging back as charging forward.

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So your plan is to stuff ~400 points of models into a 200+ point transport that can be stopped by a stunned result? Might want to rethink that. Frankly, your list as it is now would be auto-lose against any SAFH.

i think all rhinos come with smoke and extra armor now.

Close, they come with smoke and searchlights... for 35 points. Extra armour bumps it up to 50.

I suppose I could find somewhere to take 15 points from to get Daemonic Possession for my Land Raider (I say 15 because I can drop the TL Bolter to save 5 points).

To do Extra armour and Daemonic Possession for the Rhinos (EA) and Raider (DP) I'd need to free up 45 points. To just do DP for the Raider I'd be able to swap the Melta/Chain terminator for a Bolter/PowerWeapon one.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/09/2007 9:59 AM
I'm guessing because he has plenty of forward hidden PFists, but nothing that can replicate the effect of the battle cannon. I think Defilers can work just as well hanging back as charging forward.

-

So your plan is to stuff ~400 points of models into a 200+ point transport that can be stopped by a stunned result? Might want to rethink that. Frankly, your list as it is now would be auto-lose against any SAFH.

Yes, it would (600 points tied up by a glancing 3 or a penetrating 1), so EA or DP is important for it (obviously), do you think Smoke is enough for the Rhinos, or do they need EA?

you definitely want to take EA i thought they came with it
forget about the DP in my opinion it makes things abit to expensive and lowers their BS, right?

The Lash of submission can also benefit you in moving a unit CLOSER on turn one/two... i dunno about your dread or the second defiler but if you want to close the distance pulling a unit 2D6 closer to you is really appealing.

Drop the champ and icon and you'll have enough. You really don't need those extra attacks, IMO, if they're tag-teaming with the Lord.

BTW, what's with the mixing of combi-weapons?


I think they do need it. You have only two Rhinos, and the squads inside aren't cheap. You need to be as sure as possible that they'll get there.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/09/2007 10:52 AM

To do Extra armour and Daemonic Possession for the Rhinos (EA) and Raider (DP) I'd need to free up 45 points. To just do DP for the Raider I'd be able to swap the Melta/Chain terminator for a Bolter/PowerWeapon one.

Drop the champ and icon and you'll have enough. You really don't need those extra attacks, IMO, if they're tag-teaming with the Lord.

I'd lose 2 lightning claw attacks, 1 power fist, 1 chainfist, and 1 power weapon attack, but be able to get them there much more reliably, and with the lord in the taxi and up to 16 attacks on boxcars, I probably won't miss them too much...

BTW, what's with the mixing of combi-weapons?

They're what I had on hand when I built them, they're the old metal chaos terminator box. (The LCs are a conversion of course)

Yes, it would (600 points tied up by a glancing 3 or a penetrating 1), so EA or DP is important for it (obviously), do you think Smoke is enough for the Rhinos, or do they need EA?

I think they do need it. You have only two Rhinos, and the squads inside aren't cheap. You need to be as sure as possible that they'll get there.

And with 45 points to do it with (from dropping icon and champ), I can do it. (And will do it).

Revised list, a few less attacks, but hopefully the taxis will be a bit more reliable.

HQ:
Chaos Lord, Terminator Armour, Mark of Khorne, Daemon Weapon - 155 points

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, 2x Dread CCW, 2x Combi-Bolter - 100 pts
Chaos Terminators, 1 Reaper + Powerfist, 1 Combi-Melta + Chainfist, 1 Combi-Bolter + Power Weapon, 1 Pair of lightning claws all riding in a Land Raider with Daemonic Possession - 425 pts

Troops
Chaos Space Marines, 7x BP+CCW+Bolter, 2x Meltagun, 1x Champion /w Powerfist. Mounted in a Rhino with extra armour - 260
Chaos Space Marines, 7x BP+CCW+Bolter, 2x Meltagun, 1x Champion /w Powerfist. Mounted in a Rhino with extra armour - 260

Heavy Support
Defiler - 150 points
Defiler - 150 points

drop mark of khorne, because if either D6 you roll is a 1 then the lord gets no attacks, and takes a wound. Undivided is just fine for him.

Also drop the land raider, it's a waste of points as a transport. if you want to use it then have it be separate. I've seen too many games where a ordinance round vaporises a vehicle with too many points of stuff inside. have the termies deepstrike, and use the landraider as a fire magnet.

drop mark of khorne, because if either D6 you roll is a 1 then the lord gets no attacks, and takes a wound. Undivided is just fine for him.

And if neither D6 comes up 1 then the lord has 8+ attaks (vs 5+ with MoCU). The S5 of MoCU is nice though, and I would suggest it IF terminator armor still gave +1A. As is, bloodfeeder provides such a gorgeous number of attaks that it more depends on points and how much risk you want to take

On the latest list, here's something to think about. If you take the raider as a transport slot, it isn't scoring any longer (right??). If you play with any sort of objectives, this could be a very bad thing for that 240 point block of AV14 love. Yet on the flip side you are intending to use it for transport and assault, so going down as Elites is preferrable to Heavy, where every gun is going to know where it's at. Mostly your call, and can be switched if you go to play objectives or whatever.

Generally though this list would make me nervous to play with - too much depending on the enemy to NOT trash your rhinos and strand your few squads. If you go first, then you have to weather only 1 round of fire on those rhinos & raider, but if second you've got 2 rounds of hell, without smoke for the first. You have enough targets to pull fire around if the enemy doesn't have loads of it (like my chaos), but as noted SAFH lists will break what they want to.

- Salvage

your right about the land raider, but i still say it's a waste. it can almost never get it's points back as it is neither dedicated to anti tank or anti infantry roles, and will be outclasses by specified vehicles. i would much rather take two predators, each with a specific role on the battlefield so that way i'm losing no effectiveness. but some people like the land raider so it's all in personal taste i guess.

I'd rather not deep-strike quite frankly, as that can (and has) put me in a situation of, "Great, my terminators are down, but the Lord is having a sandwich somewhere" (and vice versa). With the 'taxi' they're all in one nice big concentrated armoured fist. As for transports being popped before they get to where they're going, I'll take that risk, oddly enough there don't seem to be that many marine SAFHs around for casual gaming here. This is definately not a tourney list. For that I'd do a SAFH list myself, probably with some Fzorgling going on.