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I had a situation come up in a game the other night.

I had a squad of berzerkers that was attempting to charge a squad of night lords. There was dense forest all around, but the world eaters were bunched up in a narrow 3" corridor of open terrain. The nightlords were at the end of this corridor, but they were spaced so that some of their models were also behind the forests as well. (Imagine like a 3'way intersection, or a "T".) My berzerkers were within assault range, so I moved them straight ahead towards the Night Lords, which or course left all of my berzerkers in a large clump in the open corridor contacting about 3 Night Lords.

My opponent stated that I should have had to roll for difficult terrain, because the rulebook mentions that you must get as many models into base contact as possible, and the rest of his squad was through the forest. I felt that it was not necessary to roll for difficult terrain since I could easily charge the part of his squad that was out in the open, and no rule forces me to move into difficult terrain if I choose not to.

After the game, neither of us could really come to an agreement on the issue, and the rulebook was largely unclear, (or we weren't looking in the right section). Thoughts?

I have also been a "victim" of this setup maneuver... I also am unsure as the book says on pg 37 using such wording as to make it seem Plausible that a model MUST contact an unengaged model... terrain is not mentioned...

HOWEVER... it says that the most important rule is that a model must end its charge move within cohenrency...

Interesting how much of this seems to be an "intent" issue.

Since you never roll for difficult terrain, then the "must" resolves itself as you cannot enter the terrain as it was never rolled for (sorta like a crappy roll when you try to enter... you still have to enter, just as if you dont roll to enter, you dont enter), so the models pile into the NON difficult terrain area as that is ALL THEY CAN DO...

I really dunno... I hope there is something we are both missing here to make this crystal.

Might want to check the Main Rulebook FAQ. While it addresses units partially in cover, the principle is the same, you have to roll for difficult terrain and may not choose to assault only the models out of cover.

don_mondo wrote:Might want to check the Main Rulebook FAQ. While it addresses units partially in cover, the principle is the same, you have to roll for difficult terrain and may not choose to assault only the models out of cover.

Perhaps... But if the closest model is the one outside of terrain, then why should you have to roll in the first place? You get as many models into btb contact as you can. If that means you must then move through difficult terrain, then that part of the rule is by definition not applicable (because you weren't required to roll iot charge the unit). Seems like a no-brainer to me, even wrt RAW.

Beast wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Might want to check the Main Rulebook FAQ. While it addresses units partially in cover, the principle is the same, you have to roll for difficult terrain and may not choose to assault only the models out of cover.

Perhaps... But if the closest model is the one outside of terrain, then why should you have to roll in the first place? You get as many models into btb contact as you can. If that means you must then move through difficult terrain, then that part of the rule is by definition not applicable (because you weren't required to roll iot charge the unit). Seems like a no-brainer to me, even wrt RAW.

It's the requirement to reach unoccupied models if possible, etc, that creates the need for a difficult terrain test. While the first model may not need it to reach, if the second model has to go to an unoccupied model in terrain, how do you know if it can reach or not without a test? Anyways, That's RAW per the FAQ, so I don't realy see wjat there is to debate.

don_mondo wrote:
It's the requirement to reach unoccupied models if possible, etc, that creates the need for a difficult terrain test. While the first model may not need it to reach, if the second model has to go to an unoccupied model in terrain, how do you know if it can reach or not without a test? Anyways, That's RAW per the FAQ, so I don't realy see wjat there is to debate.

It sounds like you are suggesting that the charging player must make a DT test in the middle of the move if it turns out he can't get all of his models in btb due to difficult terrain... Isn't a DT test made before any models are moved? If one model (say the furtherst one in the back) in the charging unit needs to go through difficult terrain to get into btb, but then rolls an insufficient distance to make it. Are you saying that all the other charging models must then back up and potentially have a failed assault when they originally had the charge distance through clear terrain? That certainly is not RAW. How is the charging player to know ahead of time that he 'might' have to move a model within the unit through DT if he can't get all the models into btb?

I can't say I have ever heard of anyone suggesting this course of action... But maybe it has just never come up in any of my games. In this case I would just have the charging player move his model as close to an enemy engaged model as possible (keeping in coherency)without going into the terrain (since the unit didn't roll to enter it).

Beast wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
It's the requirement to reach unoccupied models if possible, etc, that creates the need for a difficult terrain test. While the first model may not need it to reach, if the second model has to go to an unoccupied model in terrain, how do you know if it can reach or not without a test? Anyways, That's RAW per the FAQ, so I don't realy see wjat there is to debate.

It sounds like you are suggesting that the charging player must make a DT test in the middle of the move if it turns out he can't get all of his models in btb due to difficult terrain... Isn't a DT test made before any models are moved? If one model (say the furtherst one in the back) in the charging unit needs to go through difficult terrain to get into btb, but then rolls an insufficient distance to make it. Are you saying that all the other charging models must then back up and potentially have a failed assault when they originally had the charge distance through clear terrain? That certainly is not RAW. How is the charging player to know ahead of time that he 'might' have to move a model within the unit through DT if he can't get all the models into btb?

I can't say I have ever heard of anyone suggesting this course of action... But maybe it has just never come up in any of my games. In this case I would just have the charging player move his model as close to an enemy engaged model as possible (keeping in coherency)without going into the terrain (since the unit didn't roll to enter it).

You are quite correct, the test would have to be made before any models are moved, not in the middle of the move. Sorry if it seemed I was suggesting that. Basically, once the assault has been declared, the charging unit checks to make sure it can reach the unit being assaulted. At that point, you should realize whether or not a difficult terrain test will be necessary, ie whether or not models in the charging unit can possibly reach models in terrain. If so, then you do the Difficult Terrain test to see how far the charging models can reach in order to meet the charging requirements of going after unengaged models. Now if none of the charging models are within 6" of models in terrain, no test is necessary as they can only reach models outside the terrain. I was playing this way before the FAQ ever came out as it was the only way that made sense to me. My reasoning was:
1. Charging models MUST go after unengaged models if possible
2. If those unengaged models are in difficult terrain, the charging unit must test to see if it can reach them. Entire unit is limited to charge (movement) rate based on the difficult terrain test.

Yeah, I had a scenario it mind in which the charging player thinks all of his models can get btb with the enemy outside of terrain, but then it turns out he can't for whatever reason (chokepoint, moving w/in 1" of another unit, etc).

Does he then have to make a DT test for the last model(s)? Or does he then just pile his models as close as possible to other btb models which aren't in terrain? I think I would say the latter in this case.

Beast wrote:Yeah, I had a scenario it mind in which the charging player thinks all of his models can get btb with the enemy outside of terrain, but then it turns out he can't for whatever reason (chokepoint, moving w/in 1" of another unit, etc).

Does he then have to make a DT test for the last model(s)? Or does he then just pile his models as close as possible to other btb models which aren't in terrain? I think I would say the latter in this case.

I'd go ahead and just let him pile them as close as he could, whereever he could, easiest way to resolve it once models have been moved. You should be able to tell if a test is needed or not tho, before ever moving a model.
"Oh look, I have 5 models assaulting, you have three out of terrain and three more in terrain but all within 6" of all my models." Or "I have 5 models assaulting and they can only reach those three models you have out of terrain."

Yeah I agree with that scenario.

Models not moving through DT in a unit do not have to use the DT movement do they? In other words, if I have a unit 5" from a woods and roll a 3 and a 4 on the dice, I don't use the 4, but rather move the models up to the edge, correct?
If that is the case, the models that can just run down the path of clear terrain should certainly be able to engage, it is those that have to try to get through the woods to enter btb that should have to roll, and possibly get hung up.
Sorry if this was already suggested and I just missed it, but that is how I would play it.

Wehrkind wrote:Models not moving through DT in a unit do not have to use the DT movement do they? In other words, if I have a unit 5" from a woods and roll a 3 and a 4 on the dice, I don't use the 4, but rather move the models up to the edge, correct?
If that is the case, the models that can just run down the path of clear terrain should certainly be able to engage, it is those that have to try to get through the woods to enter btb that should have to roll, and possibly get hung up.
Sorry if this was already suggested and I just missed it, but that is how I would play it.

Yes, they do have to use the DT movement. Once a unit rolls for difficult terrain, then all of the models in that unit are limited to that amount of movement. In your scenario, the models would all be limited to a 4" move. So a unit that rolls snake-eyes on an attempted assault will always fail, even if the closest model is in the open and only 2" away.

Man, I will have to double check my BGB when I get home; that just does not sound sensible. I mean, what is to keep me from requiring every unit roll for difficult terrain when moving on the assumption one model might need to, and once rolled it has to be used? It seems a lot more sensible to me that one moves and if difficult terrain is encountered the dice are rolled. If less than the amount needed to get in, one just stops at the edge.

Don't get me wrong, you might be correct, but if so, that is a sad state of affairs.

Wehrkind wrote:Man, I will have to double check my BGB when I get home; that just does not sound sensible. I mean, what is to keep me from requiring every unit roll for difficult terrain when moving on the assumption one model might need to, and once rolled it has to be used? It seems a lot more sensible to me that one moves and if difficult terrain is encountered the dice are rolled. If less than the amount needed to get in, one just stops at the edge.

Don't get me wrong, you might be correct, but if so, that is a sad state of affairs.

Page 17, check it out.

The related question that often comes up locally come from this situation: a unit is in terrain, with one model partially in the terrain and partially out of the terrain on the side nearest the charging unit.

If there is only one charging model (or the charging unit is far enough away that only one model can reach btb), is that charging model (unit) required to roll a difficult terrain test?

Tiderian wrote:The related question that often comes up locally come from this situation: a unit is in terrain, with one model partially in the terrain and partially out of the terrain on the side nearest the charging unit.

If there is only one charging model (or the charging unit is far enough away that only one model can reach btb), is that charging model (unit) required to roll a difficult terrain test?

Personally I would say no. If the side that the charging model would contact is not in the difficult terrain, then the charging model is not passing through any terrain to reach the model.

Tiderian wrote:The related question that often comes up locally come from this situation: a unit is in terrain, with one model partially in the terrain and partially out of the terrain on the side nearest the charging unit.

If there is only one charging model (or the charging unit is far enough away that only one model can reach btb), is that charging model (unit) required to roll a difficult terrain test?

That is actually a simple answer as the closest model in the charging unit always has to move by the shortest possible route to reach the closest model in the target enemy unit. If that shortest route will force him through terrain then he must take a difficult terrain test.

It is a much more muddy situation when you have a unit with more than one model because subsequent models are not forced to take the shortest route (just that they must contact uncontacted enemy models if they can).

But in reality, the times when it is completely unclear as to whether your unit will have to enter terrain to charge the enemy are pretty slim. But when in doubt, the FAQ compels you to test anyway.

Don: Wow. You are absolutely correct, and that rule is absolutely rediculous. I suppose from now on I am going to just move to the edge of the terrain unless I am less than 3" from it.
"Aren't you going to roll difficult terrain?"
"Oh, no, I am not moving into the woods, just next to it, thanks."

Well, honestly I am just going to check with whomever I play to see if they want to run it RAW. Honestly, only moving models that go into or out of difficult terrain the DT roll makes much more sense.

Wehrkind wrote:Don: Wow. You are absolutely correct, and that rule is absolutely rediculous. I suppose from now on I am going to just move to the edge of the terrain unless I am less than 3" from it.
"Aren't you going to roll difficult terrain?"
"Oh, no, I am not moving into the woods, just next to it, thanks."

Well, honestly I am just going to check with whomever I play to see if they want to run it RAW. Honestly, only moving models that go into or out of difficult terrain the DT roll makes much more sense.

Sorry, but you're absolutely wrong on this.
I don't, honestly, know anyone who would agree to play the rules that way.

The idea is that you're approaching a "cover" area. You don't know what's in it. There could be traps or uneven ground. It could be an area of unstable rubble from a collapsed building.
The die roll represents your minis carefully picking their way through the area.

In the case of rolling a number too low to even reach the terrain, it represents the unit approaching the area cautiously.

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In the case of terrain/no terrain assault... it's a no-brainer...

You just do what the rules say.
You declare your assault.
Then, you measure to be sure you're within range.
If any of your models CAN contact models in cover with that move but will have to go through cover to follow the rules (contact models not already contacted by a previous model), you'll have to roll.

In other words, he has a 9 man unit. Three are in cover on each side & 3 are in the open middle area.
Declare your charge.
Measure.
If you're far enough apart that your models can contact his 3 out of cover (assuming they're the closest... smart players will edge the ones in cover a little closer for this reason) but none of them could make it into base to base with the models in cover on a 6" charge, you're fine.
If there are models that COULD make it with a 6" (or less) charge, then you MUST roll.

------------------------------------


Now, as far as the scenario of :

The related question that often comes up locally come from this situation: a unit is in terrain, with one model partially in the terrain and partially out of the terrain on the side nearest the charging unit.

If there is only one charging model (or the charging unit is far enough away that only one model can reach btb), is that charging model (unit) required to roll a difficult terrain test?

A roll actually could be necessary. Not in the EXACT scenario you mentioned... but in SIMILAR situations:

If no other models can be contacted, the assaulting player has to double up on the charged model.
If 6" will allow more than one model to get into base to base with that model, and any of those models need to go through the difficult terrain to do so... a roll will be required.


Additionally, if said model is sticking out of the terrain, and charged from the direction that it is sticking out, it will not get the Initiative 10 bump if no models go through terrain while reaching base-to-base. You only get the Init 10 if you're charged in cover. Technically, you aren't in cover from that charge.

Many people play that wrong. I know my group did, until we discovered the truth.


Eric