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This game up in a game last night. Can Lash of Submission pull a unit out of close combat?

We leaned toward yes it could because it did not count as a shooting attack just was used in the shooting phase but I am curious to how others are playing it.

Brave Rifles

Our group plays it as a "No."
It is used in the shooting phase, thus we apply those same rules.


We had the same issue come up a month or so ago. We looked through the codex & the BGB and found nothing specifically allowing or denying that.

Since it was ambiguous, we ruled in favor of the less powerful option.


Eric

I think this is part of a much larger issue, and that is how players interpret the psychic rules.

As I have seen it there are two schools of thought:

1. Psychic powers follow all of the rules for shooting unless specifically contradicted in their rules. So a power that said it hits any model within 12" with a Str 6 attack can only actually affect a model that is in LOS, and that belongs to a unit that the rest of the psykers unit fires at, and is not locked in CC, etc.

2. Psychic powers that break any of the shooting rules break all of the shooting rules. So the same power above could target models out of LOS, in CC or anything else that fits the definition of "any."

Personally I'm a 2. Which ever way you go though it will answer your question about Lash. The best thing to do is to figure out which way you want to play with your opponent and remain consistent.

Lash cannot move a unit within 1" of an enemy unit. If a unit is engaged, there is no way to move them without moving them within 1" of an enemy model.

' Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules.......'
page 52 of the rulebook

Does Lash specifically state that it ignores the 'usual Shooting rules'? If no, then it cannot be used against a unit in CC.

skyth wrote:Lash cannot move a unit within 1" of an enemy unit. If a unit is engaged, there is no way to move them without moving them within 1" of an enemy model.

Shhh. Please see 'cheaters and observing others games' thread elsewhere.

Laserbait wrote:

' Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules.......'
page 52 of the rulebook

Does Lash specifically state that it ignores the 'usual Shooting rules'? If no, then it cannot be used against a unit in CC.

Damn, why do you got to go and use logic, rules, and actually read the BBB? This is a bad game remeber???????? Geeez.

Its been a while since I have read the physic power section so bear with me but in essence the physic power sections states that they are considered shooting attacks and thus follow all the rules unless otherwise specified?

I just want to make sure I have it right when we play again.

Thanks
Brave Rifles

It's true. However the wording is such that we don't know wether we are supposed to try to cut and paste a mixture of the specific powers rules or simply ignore the shooting rules and use the psychic power rules instead.

For instance, if we were mixing in the shooting rules with Fury of the Ancients can only cause hits on models that are in LOS of the Librarian. I do not believe that was the intent of of the writers. I think they meant that the power CAN affect models out of LOS, but that is only if we believe that the word "Every" in the sentence "Every unit in its path will suffer... hits..." to literally mean every unit even if not a valid target by the normal shooting rules. By doing that shouldn't we also believe that "Any unit" also means any unit even if not a valid target by the normal shooting rules?

I think skyths argument is the best but if we go that route then we must also say that units NOT in CC are also immune to this power simply by being within 1" of an enemy unit. This situation doesn't come up that often though. Infantry assaulting vehicles, consolidation, fallback moves, etc.

To me it doesn't matter which way its played but it does need to be consistent across the board.

If you don't lash enemy units out of CC then you know you've got the hang of it.

Cheers!



- G

It's used as a shooting weapon. This is a hint. At least...

But the reason why I say 'no' to moving a unit out of CC is because the effect of Lash is a (forced) movement. And are you able to move out of CC without a withdraw abitility? I guess not. Plus the rules say you may not move the any models into a radius of 1" of your own...and CC is probably already closer than 1"...normal movement rules apply to Lash! This is why the stupid thing can bunch your units up...ready for being pie-plated.

vogelfrei wrote:It's used as a shooting weapon. This is a hint. At least...

But the reason why I say 'no' to moving a unit out of CC is because the effect of Lash is a (forced) movement. And are you able to move out of CC without a withdraw abitility? I guess not. Plus the rules say you may not move the any models into a radius of 1" of your own...and CC is probably already closer than 1"...normal movement rules apply to Lash! This is why the stupid thing can bunch your units up...ready for being pie-plated.

I agree with your answer, but not your reasoning.
There are all kinds of things that break rules, so it wouldn't be unusual to see a rule broken by a psychic power.
In case of lash, I can think of 2 more it breaks:
Can only move in your own movement phase
and
Can only move up to 6" (Lash moves them up to 12, with an average of 7).



Re:

I think skyths argument is the best but if we go that route then we must also say that units NOT in CC are also immune to this power simply by being within 1" of an enemy unit. This situation doesn't come up that often though. Infantry assaulting vehicles, consolidation, fallback moves, etc.

That doesn't hold water. It all depends on model placement.
For example, if you have a straight line of 8 model, and I have a parallel line of 8 models exactly one inch away, you could definitely lash my models, as long as you didn't move them TOWARDS me.
You could slide them sideways into terrain, backwards away from you, at an angle away from your weaker unit to a tougher unit (behind my models).

There are countless ways they could be moved & still be kept 1"+ away.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Can only move in your own movement phase
and
Can only move up to 6" (Lash moves them up to 12, with an average of 7).

Movement is movement isn't it? Following the general rules for...movement. :S

Think of fleet or eldar jetbikes or various other units, that may move outside your own movement phase. You alway have to go with the general movement rules.
Same is true for lash.

Damn, there are a lot of "movements" in this post...

MagickalMemories wrote:
Re:

I think skyths argument is the best but if we go that route then we must also say that units NOT in CC are also immune to this power simply by being within 1" of an enemy unit. This situation doesn't come up that often though. Infantry assaulting vehicles, consolidation, fallback moves, etc.

That doesn't hold water. It all depends on model placement.
For example, if you have a straight line of 8 model, and I have a parallel line of 8 models exactly one inch away, you could definitely lash my models, as long as you didn't move them TOWARDS me.
You could slide them sideways into terrain, backwards away from you, at an angle away from your weaker unit to a tougher unit (behind my models).

There are countless ways they could be moved & still be kept 1"+ away.


Eric

The point of Skyths argument isnt that they can zigzag their way wround the field avoiding the 1" buffer around enemy units. The point is that the unit STARTS its forced movement already breaking the 1" rule so is then immediately immune to the effects of lash. So, what he is saying is that when the rule says you cannot move the target unit within 1" of an enemy it means that they cannot be within 1" of an enemy before the move, during the move, and after the move.

Glaive Company CO wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
Re:

I think skyths argument is the best but if we go that route then we must also say that units NOT in CC are also immune to this power simply by being within 1" of an enemy unit. This situation doesn't come up that often though. Infantry assaulting vehicles, consolidation, fallback moves, etc.

That doesn't hold water. It all depends on model placement.
For example, if you have a straight line of 8 model, and I have a parallel line of 8 models exactly one inch away, you could definitely lash my models, as long as you didn't move them TOWARDS me.
You could slide them sideways into terrain, backwards away from you, at an angle away from your weaker unit to a tougher unit (behind my models).

There are countless ways they could be moved & still be kept 1"+ away.


Eric

The point of Skyths argument isnt that they can zigzag their way wround the field avoiding the 1" buffer around enemy units. The point is that the unit STARTS its forced movement already breaking the 1" rule so is then immediately immune to the effects of lash. So, what he is saying is that when the rule says you cannot move the target unit within 1" of an enemy it means that they cannot be within 1" of an enemy before the move, during the move, and after the move.

See, I didn't read it that way.
I understand and agree with everything you said. No disagreements there.

I was looking at this:

but if we go that route then we must also say that units NOT in CC are also immune to this power simply by being within 1" of an enemy unit.

I thought (LOL, that's my first problem LOL) that, by saying "within 1" of an enemy," he meant one inch away since, AFAIK -AFAI can remember- you can't be less than 1" from an enemy unit, unless you're charging it. Other than that, you have to be more than 1" away.

Eric

As far as I can tell, if a unit is 1" away from an enemy unit, they are NOT engaged. And reading the rules for Lash, there is nothing to stop you from using that power on the enemy unit to move them AWAY from your troops.

The rule simply states you cannot move the unit to 'within 1" of enemy models'

I look forward to seeing these perfect close combats with everyone lined up and ready to be eligible to be lashed.

Or not. Lash isn't a game winner. Move on.

Try Warptime. Comes with a free lemonade with every use!