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I am going to be reaccessorising my space marines to become space wolves. I rarely see them played. Looking through the codex I can see some slight problems. Nothing I cant fix. Wondering what people who have played them or against them think. Which units should I stay away from? Which should I play with?

Their troops are good.

Long fangs are completely and utterly useless.

Go VERY cheap on the HQs or you will find the requirement of having 3 very painful.

The leman russ seems like a good buy to me if you're doin tanks.

13th Company is a flawed army that can't hang vs. skimmers or vehicle heavy armies and has problems with a lot of others. Don't bother unless you really like the fluff.

Wolf scouts are amazingly cool.

You are required to have 1 HQ for every 750 pts, so its easy to become HQ heavy and be lacking in troops. That said, Space Wolves can do some interesting things, such as save two wounds per turn with a wolf priest, or take a Venerable dread as an HQ and one as an elite.

Your standard Grey Hunter Squands don't have the option for a heavy weapon, but they can take a plasma gun and two plasma pistols. Blood Claws have BS 3. Every squad however can take two powerweapons or fists, plus be joined by a Wolf Guard Leader with wargear. That makes your squads pricey, but very good in close combat.

You also have access to the Leman Russ Autocannon variant, which is better then the predator in the anti-troop role, but you will find that blood claws and grey hunters can handle most infantry. Tanks, long range shooting and skimmers are your biggest threat, as they can stay out of range and pound your short range forces.

the 13th company is a unique list of all infantry. They are expensive, quality troops on par with GK in cost. As such they need long fangs to deal with skimmers and enemy tanks and to cover for the troops as they hike to the objectives.

DonkeyCannon wrote:I am going to be reaccessorising my space marines to become space wolves. I rarely see them played. Looking through the codex I can see some slight problems. Nothing I cant fix. Wondering what people who have played them or against them think. Which units should I stay away from? Which should I play with?

Speaking as a Space Wolf player...

Space Wolves are terrible if they're not in Drop Pods. In Drop Pods, they're competitive. I'm something like 11 wins, one draw, no losses with my reasonably new list as a result of the pods. My worst blow-out with my list was against... non-Drop Pod Space Wolves.

Basically, they have two good units: Venerable Dreadnought and Wolf Scouts, both are 0-1*. Always take both. Always.

The Venny gets Hard to Kill which is probably better than you think just reading the description, especially for something that should be arriving via Drop Pod and thus can shield itself from a good chunk of heavy weapons fire. Then he gets Old and Wise, which lets you reroll the dice for the first turn, which is a nice benefit as since in a good Space Wolves list everything starts in reserve, you want to go second to deny your opponent another turn of shooting and assaulting. And then he gets BS 5 and WS 5. All put together, this is one of the most points-effective models in the game in my opinion (at least, when put in a Drop Pod; dreads that have to walk from one board edge to combat are on their own). The basic Assault Cannon/DCCW config with the Heavy Flamer (an underappreciated weapon in any case, and when you come in with a pod, you pretty much get to pick any squad to lay it on the turn you come in) is pretty much optimal.

Then the Wolf Scouts. Now, scouts are mostly crap, but Wolf Scouts get superior weapon options (with a Wolf Guard, they can take a total of a Meltagun, two Plasma Pistols, two Power Weapons, and a Power Fist) and get Operate Behind Enemy Lines, which means you either get to eat some vulnerable back-row squad/vehicle, or deny your opponent a minimum of a quarter of the board to position in. Another very potent option.

Wolf Guard Terminators are almost good -- they're overpriced, but stock two Assault Cannons per squad and the big benefit is Runic Charms, which for 30 points for an IC-led squad of 5 total termies lets each one reroll an armor save. The end result is they go from resilient to small arms and non-power weapon assault to all but immune to it. And then you let your Assault Cannons do their thing, and get into combat with your (overpriced) Power Fists, Frost Blades, or what-have-you.

So then, you have what's left...

Long Fangs? Utter crap. I've said the Space Wolves list was mugged in a dark alley by fourth edition, and this is an excellent example of why -- a heavy weapons squad that gets a nice special ability, but pays for it, but can only have five total wounds in it. Great with third edition style screening, useless in fourth edition.

Vehicles I'll leave for someone else, as I don't use them all that much due to being Drop Pod focused. It's not that the Space Wolf vehicles are bad (beyond Rhinos sucking across the board), they just don't fit in as well with the Drop Pod list.

Blood Claws? They're actually pretty good for the price compared to other 6"/6" assault troops. The problem is they don't have much in the way of good ways to get into assault. I do run with a squad in a Drop Pod to wildly varying levels of sucess (primarily, I use them as assault magnets -- the threat of the vicious charge they can deliver frequently ends up with them being charged by models I want to get in assault anyway. In any case, their charge is potent enough that just the threat of it, even if it's awkward for you to get due to them coming out of a pod, affects your opponent's strategy). The problem is that they're 6"/6" and basically either Drop Pod (with no charge possible the turn they come in), walk, or hop aboard a death trap Rhino to get anywhere.

Grey Hunters? They're not bad. They're just overpriced. With a bolter (so they can actually use the True Grit they pay for) and frags, they cost four points more than a Chaos Marine who gets... frags and gear that makes True Grit redundant. Sure, the hunters get Counterattack, never outnumbered (which might be useful pending some fifth edition rumors being true...), and ATSKNF, but when they're glorified bolter-firing hidden Power Fist meat shields, they're overpriced. And then you get to the meat of the Grey Hunter troop selection: You can have three Power Fists in a ten-man squad. It's pricy, but quite good in assault. And the squad can still carry and fire bolters and carry a Plasma Gun (and up to two Plasma Pistols, although I find the option to not be worth it). That said my 1500 point list includes three squads of them due to sheer lack of choice in the overall list.

Blood Claw jump packers? A Blood Claw costs one point less than a standard marine, and comes with free frags. A Blood Claw in a jump pack costs 8 points more than a standard marine in a jump pack. Something just ain't right there.

Blood Claw bikers? While cheaper than marine bikers, they still have the problem of marine bikers not being very good.

HQs? Most boil down to glorified terminator squad captains. One of the limitations of the list is that you can only get terminator squads as retinues for HQ choices, so that's mostly what your HQs will do. The Rune Priest has a fairly good pyschic power, though, and my gut feeling after playing with wolves on the table is that the Wolf Priest might even be worthwhile as well leading terminators (but I need to seriously crunch some numbers to convince myself), but by and large the optimal HQ is a fairly minimally equipped Wolf Guard Battle Leader. Doesn't need the extra frills from the other choices, just a little bit of I5 assault stacked on a terminator squad.

And that's pretty much the list. Take out the pods and you have an entirely different game, but as they are, Space Wolves get lots of rapid fire and their special rules set them up to receive charges well, so pods are a pretty natural fit.


* Well, Wolf Scouts technically aren't, but Operate Behind Enemy Lines is, so, really, useful Wolf Scouts are 0-1.

Can you post your list, Lowinor? I'm swapping my current Legion of the Damned over to their ruleset. Some ideas would be nice to mull over.

4th Edition killed the Space Wolves and most of them have retreated to the Fang.

Space Wolves are an assault army, so you need something to get them into assault. Orks have hordes and Waaagh, Tyranids and Dark Eldar have speed, and demon bombs have summoning. Thirteenth company had bike, wolves, and other tricks to get them into assault.

But Space Wolves? After the death of the rhino rush, they have no way to make it across the board and not get the crap shot out of them by a shooting army, (though they might do ok against another assault army).

In the US, no Space Wolf player finished above 50th in a GT, and what scores they did get where mostly from painting.

Now the Space Wolves special rules do fit drop podding well....the only downside is that most good players have learned how to counter Drop Pods, so your victories will either be hit or miss.

Lowinor wrote:
Long Fangs? Utter crap. I've said the Space Wolves list was mugged in a dark alley by fourth edition, and this is an excellent example of why -- a heavy weapons squad that gets a nice special ability, but pays for it, but can only have five total wounds in it. Great with third edition style screening, useless in fourth edition.

I was thinking about using Fangs in a drop list. The thing is, don't long fangs have the option for special weapons in addition to heavies? Maybe I'm confused, but 4-5 plasma/melta/flamers coming down could be a nasty unit. Granted, they're expensive for a suicide unit.

Is that a challenge, Blackmoor? Everyone says Sisters suck, but they don't. Hard to use doesn't mean they suck. I think the list when drop podded has potential.

I really love my Legion of the Damned, I'm still working on it but I've just given up completely on my DA list. Hopefully the SW rules will breathe new life into my Legion of the Damned drop pod army. Well that and a bunch more models.

Long Fangs sucked from the introduction of the Codex, 4th edition had nothing to do with it.

Only the pack leader for them can take special weapons, the rest get a heavy weapon.

Stelek wrote:Can you post your list, Lowinor? I'm swapping my current Legion of the Damned over to their ruleset. Some ideas would be nice to mull over.

From memory (list is in the trunk at the moment...)


Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Frost Blade, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, Armory bit that gives you +1A on Counterattack that I can't remember the name and my codex is in the car
Wolf Guard, Power Sword, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, Runic Charm
Wolf Guard, Power Fist, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, Runic Charm
Wolf Guard, Power Fist, Assault Cannon, Terminator Armor, Runic Charm
Drop Pod

Venerable Dreadnought (SW variety, not SM)
Assault Cannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Wolf Scouts
2x Bolt Pistol, CCW
2x Plasma Pistol, CCW
1x Meltagun
Wolf Guard, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist

Grey Hunters
5x Bolter,
1x Plasma Gun
Drop Pod

Grey Hunters
6x Bolter,
1x Plasma Gun
1x Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
Drop Pod

Grey Hunters
6x Bolter,
1x Plasma Gun
1x Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
Drop Pod

Blood Claws
6x Bolt Pistol, CCW
2x Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
1x Flamer
Wolf Guard, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist
Drop Pod

Total: 1500 points.

This list isn't particularly optimized, but it plays quite well -- it's a semi-friendly list. This is what I wrote when I first got the models and haven't really changed it up, as I haven't seen much reason to within the scope of a friendly list -- it has a good balance of warm bodies and decent hitting power. I'd like to fit a fist in the smaller GH pack, but I'm not sure what I'd want to get rid of to put it there.

It's not maxed out on fists in the troop squads (other than the BCs) because both I wanted more bodies than I could afford with maxed fists, and I wanted the fists spread out (which is especially useful against Necrons).

Blackmoor wrote:Space Wolves are an assault army, so you need something to get them into assault. Orks have hordes and Waaagh, Tyranids and Dark Eldar have speed, and demon bombs have summoning. Thirteenth company had bike, wolves, and other tricks to get them into assault.

Space Wolves aren't an assault army, they're a balanced army good at short-range combat, not necessarily assault. They're too invested in marine-level shooting to really be an assault army -- to be played well they have to be good at the shooting and assault phases. Not that they're actually good, but if they're played as an "assault army" they're fairly terrible. Pods push them even more towards the "short-range combat not just assault" setup as well.

skyth wrote:I was thinking about using Fangs in a drop list. The thing is, don't long fangs have the option for special weapons in addition to heavies? Maybe I'm confused, but 4-5 plasma/melta/flamers coming down could be a nasty unit. Granted, they're expensive for a suicide unit.

13th Company Long Fangs can take assault weapons, but Space Wolf Long Fangs can't.

The only real viable (non pod) list in my estimation is basic troops in landraiders.

Here's my hypothetical list @ 1750

Wolf guard leader, frost blade/bolt pistol
Wolf guard leader, frost blade/bolt pistol
Venerable dread with las/ml, extra armor

15 bloodclaws, 3 powerfists, meltagun
9 grey hunters, two powerfists, frags, meltagun
9 bloodclaws, 2 powerfists, meltagun

2 landraiders with smoke
1 landraider crusader with smoke

Turn 1: Use your reroll to get first turn. If you don't, hide everything (shouldn't be hard to at least be obscured if not blocked, only 4 vehicles).

Your turn 1: Run forward, smoke. Gank a tank with your venerable.

Your turn 2: If any landraiders got blown up, make a sad face. Otherwise, charge forward to victory.

Lowinor I have been reading the codex, apparently wolf scouts have to deep strike via drop pod if you drop pod at all. Has this been ratified?

Don't think so. That's why I dropped them in my revised list for more dreads.

I ran a space marine list with true grit that was very succesful, that in retrospect should have maybe been space wolves.

Sorry for the long post, this is the list Space Marines vs Space Wolves in 2000. It's not quite right but it's what I remember. Everything has True Grit and the bikes have Skilled Rider.

Chapter Master
-> Rites of Battle (which Space Wolves don't get)
-> TL LC, Artificer, Frag, Bike, Combat Shield

Master of Sanctity
-> Fearless, Re-rolls, 3W
Command Squad
-> Infiltrate, Meltagun, Apothecary, Standard Bearer, Vet w/ Power Fist and BP.

Tac Squad w/ 10x Marines
-> Flamer and Vet w/ LC and SB
-> Rhino with Smoke

2x Tac Squads w/ 6x Marines
->Meltagun

Grey Knights x6
-> Targeter, Frag on Justicar

Bike Squad w/ 3x Bikes + Attack Bike
-> Flamer and Heavy Bolter

Assault Squad w/ 5x Assault Marines
-> No upgrades

Land Speeder Tornado

2x Dev Squads w/ 5x Marines
-> 2x Lascannons

Whirlwind

// 62 bodies, 1997 points

Space Wolf List

Wolf Lord
-> Frag, Runic Armour, TL LC, Belt, Runic Charm, Bike

Wolf Preist
-> Healing Potions, Frag, Wolf Pelt, Runic Charm
Attached
Grey Hunters x9
-> Meltagun, Powerfist
-> Rhino with Smoke

Wolf Guard Battle Leader
-> Frag, Wolf Pelt, Runic Charm, Frost Blade, BP
Attached
Grey Hunters x9
-> Flamer, Powerfist
-> Rhino with Smoke

2x Grey Hunters w/ 6x Marines
->Meltagun

Grey Knights x6
-> Targeter, Frag on Justicar

Attack Bikes x3
-> Heavy Bolters

Blood Claw Assault Squad w/ 5x Assault Marines
-> No upgrades

Land Speeder Tornado

2x Long Fang Squads w/ 5x Marines
-> 2x Lascannons, 2x Heavy Bolters

Whirlwind

The total had come to 2183. If we lose a Heavy Bolter Long Fang in each squad, an attack bike and use a standard Land Speeder we get to 2007 w/ 57 models. We could also tweak wargear or lose a Grey Knight etc.

It's not fast but it doesn't have any vehicles, either, so your opponents big anti-tank guns will go to waste. The rhinos hide, and then move 12 and pop smoke and everyone gets out. Alternatively you can use terrain to hide the rhinos for another turn.

With the marching army, the Command Squad infiltrates right up the middle (it gets an effective extra 6" deployment from the infiltrate, more if they deploy back) and the rhino squad generally flanks.

On a 4x4 every game was a massacre in my favour (except Speed Freak Orks, boo) and on a 6x4 the games were all fun with wins and losses. I tended to lose against Tyranids and Speed Freak Orks but win against Tau and Eldar. Came out about even against Space Marines.

All the Grey Knights do is march and shoot their storm bolters. On a 6x4 I might have them deep strike. The Assault Marines are just cannon fodder, they charge up and get shot by shooty armies while the meltagun squads continue their advance. Against assaulty armies I would probably use them as counter charge or whatever. They are useful. There's a lot of bolters in this army, and you can't win if you don't use them.

I might be tempted to switch the HQ a bit to get better use of the ld10 on the Wolf Lord. The Chapter Master on bike by himself is useful tho, more useful than a venerable dread I'd say. It gives the list some nice fast hard hitting power.

I'm just trying to say that marching True Grit armies can do well in 4th ed, mostly because of Rapid Fire + Counterattack. The trick is to take advantage of being a MEQ and lose all the vehicles, at least it worked for me.

I agree with the True Grit on marines. When I redid my Legion of the Damned, I gave them that occasionally as my original concept of Apoth's and Cleanse proved unneeded.