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Ok, kinda appealed to the idea of a horde BT army, and I've drawn up a few drafts I think all seem reasonable, but I can't tell which would be the most fun and/or most effective of the lot.

List 1:
Master of Sanctity w/ Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol and 3 Cenobytes
Emperor's Champion w/ Uphold Honor vow

2 Crusader squads- 10 Initiates 9 Neophytes, Power Fist + Melta Gun

4 Crusader squads- 6 Initiates, Lascannon + Plasma gun

2 Dreadnoughts w/ Assault Cannons, Armor, Smoke Launchers

(Chaplain and Emperor's Champion each take one of the bigger squads to hide in)

List 2:
Master of Sanctity w/ Terminator Armor, Bolt Pistol and 3 Cenobytes
Emperor's Champion w/ Uphold Honor vow

Assault terminators- 3 w/ Thunder hammers, 2 w/ Lightning Claws

Crusader Squad- 10 Initiates 10 Neophytes, Power Fist + Melta Gun

2 Crusader Squads- 10 Initiates 5 Neophytes, Power Fist + Melta Gun

2 Predator Annihilators- Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Armor, Smoke

(Chaplain joins Assault Terminators, Champ hides in maxed Crusader squad)

List 3:
Master of Sanctity w/ Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol, 3 cenobytes, Holy Orb of Antioch
Emperor's Champion w/ Uphold Honor vow

Sword Brethren Squad- 7 Brethren w/ Power Weapon, Lightning Claws

2 Assault Squads- 6 Initiates w/ Power Fist, 2 Plasma Pistols

3 Crusader Squads- 10 Initiates 6 Neophytes, Power fist + Melta Gun

(Chaplain joins Brethren and Emperor's Champion joins a Crusade squad)



List 1 is by far my least favorite, partly because it's so dry, but more because it seems to minimize H2H (one of the biggest reasons i like BT's in the first place). List 2 seems to pack the most all around punch, but it and list 3 both have just a few big chunky targets to choose from. Also, Im not entirely certain of how much bang for my buck i can get with the pricier vows, so i just left the default at Uphold Honor.

Sooo, which seems most plausible, should I mix and match, tactical advice, shoe-lace tying secrets, whatever you care to share.
Thanks in advance.

Have you tried an army with 3 large Crusader squads accompanied by EC and two cheap Reclusiarchs,
backed up by a couple of tanks, i.e., 2 Preds, Vindicator, and Dread?
This combo is very flexible able to deal with any threat.

wuestenfux has a good idea there. There is nothing like a massed horde of marines marching up the table with 3 Vindicators that have PotMS on it.

If you are going to take assault troops such as sword brethren or even assault terminators I would include a Landraider to get them to their target safely.

I made a BT list a while ago, on what BT should field.

Basically it centers around your basic troops with enough firepower to shut down enemy shooting, barring lists entirely devoted to shooting of course.

You want to run termies, run dark angels or vanilla marines or chaos. They're all better than BT termies.

Troops are your win button in a BT army.

Toss in everyone using psykers and the 5th edition run move, and a crusader army has real potential.

I'm going to have to disagree with you Stelek.

BT Terminators are Fearless in hand to hand. That in itself is an incredibly important rule. Granted, if you're getting overwhelmed, it doesn't help out at all, but when you're fighting Leadership modifier units or things like Flayed ones, they're great.

Righteous Zeal also makes them faster than typical Termies. You kill one of the squad, and oh look, now they're all that many inches closer to catching you in a massive charlie foxtrot.

CK

Termie units are 5 man walking jokes.

You know you test after everything is done shooting at you, right?

So if anyone survives, then you run into rapid fire range...and you get smoked next turn to bolter fire, while the heavy weapons light up your next termie squad.

Being fearless in CC when you are already marines just means you can't "escape" and get escorted off the battlefield. You're still a horrible terminator squad compared to the flex DA squads get.

I should clarify: I run 8-10 man squads.

Never in my gaming career have I fielded a Terminator Squad smaller than 6 models.

When the test is done, you run forward, and then get to move, shoot and assault in your turn, BEFORE your opponent gets to do anything.

"You're still a horrible terminator squad compared to the flex DA squads get."

Oh really? Being limited to 5-man squads is "flex?" Please, do explain your reasoning.

CK

Hehe well, Im not exactly looking to build the winningest list ever, or else yes, i would've chosen a different army (likely eldar or chaos or big bugs). But I like temp's for their look and style, so i dont mind having slightly weaker terminators or slightly more points to spend per marine. What is important to know is, given the chapter's limitations, is the list tactically sound. As long as i stand a fighting chance, what matters most is enjoying the way they play.

Also with the suggestion for super massed infantry, the most i can see fitting into 1500 points is roughly 80 marines (including two barebones chaplains and minimum emp champion). Even then, that eats up all the points but a scant 70 points or so, and I'd lose a lot of the smashy H2H feel by burdening a bunch of splintered mini-squads with Lascannons and such (personally, i think the 6 man Mauleed pattern squad takes the character out of BT altogether) to make up for the lack of heavy guns. Throughout all three lists, the total count is consistently between 60 and 70 troops, which seems sufficient to qualify as horde as far as marines go.

All that being said, Im leaning heavily towards list 2, as it has a small chunk of scary troops (5 termies with a term. chaplain and cenobytes), 3 large infantry blocks, and two orders of dakka-on-treads for making the big holes. So now, the most burning questions on my mind are
1: Assault terminators or Shooty terminators (baring in mind the extra points needed to make room for Assault Cannons)
2: Best choice for the firepower (preds are nice, but so are dreadnoughts and vindicators)
3: Best Vow for the list (Uphold honor works as a default for cheap price and a bit of extra survivability crossing the field on foot, but I have no idea if it's what's best)
4: Lack of targets. Even though i put lotsa meat on the table, all in all there are only 6 different targets for any opponent to split fire between. Is this a crippling problem?

I seem to have a weird thing for lists...anyway, thanks for the input so far, and please continue to rip apart/modify/reorganize what's here at will.

To corpsman:

If you really think bigger terminator squads without any weapons to shoot with are the win...and if you really think powerfist terminators are also the win...

Well, I wish I could play you and teach you the error of your ways.

DA can run CC units with heavy weapons. BT cannot.

DA run a much better terminator based army than BT.

PF termies aren't exactly well known for their CC goodness, and SB aren't really scary.

To top it all off, vanilla marines have better termies than BT or DA.

To firepower:

There is no such thing as a mauleed pattern squad. lol
You are correct that it takes the character out of BT squads to run 6 in a min/max config. It's also not necessary.

You can take 5 man Sword Brethren squads and get infiltrating lascannon fire for 110 points. That's real nice.

So the problem you really have is, at 1500 points Black Templars just aren't effective. Just like Space Wolves, you have serious problems *having* to take a third HQ.
While they only suffer this problem above 1500 points, I'm sure you get the drift.

If you bring along standard vehicles, you're asking for trouble against heavy firepower armies. So bring along a firebase instead, and reduce all the AT shots to killing a marine or bouncing off of land raiders.

I'll post a list later for you, 1500 points is difficult to make work but I'll give it a go.

Troops are the base off which Templars are built. I usually don't fool around with extra stuff until I have a solid half of my list built into Crusader Squads.

I'm going to remain opposed to your opinion regarding BT Terminators. When you have large numbers of them in a squad (5 Terminators is a joke at any points level), those power fist attacks really add up. You're right though that Storm Bolters are pretty weak - 90% of the killing power in a Terminator Squad is done by the pair of Assault Cannons.

I run a Terminator-based BT army only above the 2500 point level anyway, so it doesn't really matter when talking about a game half the size.

You're still discounting the value of a Chaplain with a Cenobyte Retinue in a massive 10-man squad of Terminators. I've never seen such a hard hitting unit move so quickly across the field.

CK