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So this is my WWP list.

Explanations below.

2000 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster - Kabal

----------------------On-board at start of game army----------------------

=Anti-Tank=

1 Dracon @ 147 Pts
Splinter Rifle
1 Retinue @ [110] Pts
10 Warriors @ [110] Pts
Splinter Rifle (x8); Dark Lance (x2)

12 Warrior Squad @ 116 Pts
Splinter Rifle (x10); Dark Lance (x2)

=Anti-Infantry and WWP Deployers=

19 Warrior Squad @ 246 Pts
Blaster (x2); Splinter Rifle (x15); Splinter Cannon (x2)
1 Sybarite @ [64] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Webway Portal; Splinter Rifle

19 Warrior Squad @ 246 Pts
Blaster (x2); Splinter Rifle (x15); Splinter Cannon (x2)
1 Sybarite @ [64] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Webway Portal; Splinter Rifle

---------------------------------WWP Army---------------------------------

1 Archon @ 137 Pts
Agoniser; Close Combat Weapon; Combat Drug Dispenser; Shadow Field; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades

He goes in any transport that can take him. With 2 turns of reserve rolls and 6 transports, he will come in, get off, and go wack something.

Usually the games over on turn 3 when the WWP army arrives, because it isn't immobile once it comes out like a drop pod army is. It can cleanse a table corner then come beat face on the other corner the turn after.

I don't get to play this army much, people hated it at 1250 (when it wasn't a WWP army) and they really hate it now. lol

=Anti-tank=

5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Blaster (x2); Combat Drugs
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Blaster (x2); Combat Drugs
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Blaster (x2); Combat Drugs
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

=Anti-infantry=

8 Raider Squad @ 129 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x7); Raider
1 Raider @ [60] Pts
Disentegrator

8 Raider Squad @ 129 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x7); Raider
1 Raider @ [60] Pts
Disentegrator

8 Raider Squad @ 129 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x7); Raider
1 Raider @ [60] Pts
Disentegrator

=Anti-anything=

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x1); Disentegrator (x2)

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x1); Disentegrator (x2)

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts
Dark Lance (x1); Disentegrator (x2)

Total Roster Cost: 1999

Haven't seen an army that can take the webway assault on turn 3 and survive with enough to strike back.

Someday, I will.

What's the use of the bare Dracon? He seems out of place.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

i love this list. i essentially ran the same thing without the webway. sometimes i subed mandrakes in for the wyches too.

depending on the new codex when it comes out i may have to redo my DE with something along these lines

The Dracon retinue costs more points (5) per DL than a regular warrior squad, but to get cheap blasters (I want one per warrior squad) I have to:

Buy a incubi, remove his power weapon, and buy a blaster for him since the Warriors can't have blasters or shredders only incubi can. Costs quite a bit for a whole lotta nothin.

Since I want 2 warrior units on the table that can absorb hits before folding AND have dark lances AND increase the number of raiders I have AND I can only have 6 troops choices...

So, he's there to get me that crucial 7th troop choice, essentially.

Well, there was a guy winning the German GT with WWP DE.
He cheated in one game, declaring the roll of 6 on the Wych combat drug chart as 12'' charge (but its the 1).
DE is very potent.
One problem with the WWP is survivability. Your army as two WWPs and are carried by large Warrior squads.
That may work even when the enemy has one shooting round to take them down.
However, I don't like small Wych squads, I run 10 Wyches with 2 blasters incl Succubus with agonizer and trophy rack.

i don't normally run a DE WWP army as i am normally only playing 1000 point matches. I run my Wyches in squads of 10 with a squad leader having an agoniser and a wych weapon, if im taking them anti tanking i also give them haywire grenades (2 to 5 = glance 6 = pen).

How well would this list do against the new ork codex at 2000 points, I wonder? I have doubts as to whether you could kill them quickly enough to stop from being overwhelmed.

I'm also surprised you can get by with your two webway portals carried within squads at 2000 points. I'd be worried they could get routed/pinned by the amount of fire you can run into at those point levels. Maybe those concerns are unfounded if you haven't experienced them through lots of play, but it seems like a potential issue.

It's certainly different than what I normally see (only 1 agonizer, bare drachon only for extra squad, etc), so I'm curious to see the other Dakka comments on it

You can get shot to pieces if you aren't careful. The solution is remembering you aren't trying to be seen by his whole army with either of these squads. Given a decent amount of terrain, you should be able to avoid a good deal of incoming fire. Add in some cover saves and you'll be in fine shape.

There's a serious risk to every army in coming closer to try and pummel the warrior squads, in that if you fail to break them the portals drop and you're close to the WWP army as it comes out. Which is exactly what a DE player wants you to do...

Shooting the enemy when you come out of the portal is usually better than coming out and running into CC, but if you need to do so you certainly can. DE Warriors are excellent troops.

Played against a similiar list last night with my GK's. He only had 7-8 raiders at 1500 pts tho. I only deployed 4-6 inches on the board and shot everything down staying just out of raider assault range. I think the traditional DE list is better than portal. Especially with 5th looming. I am thinking 6 squads of warriors with splinters/D-lances for anti troop/armor and claiming objectives may be the way to go. Throw in 3 wyche squads, ravagers, and dracons on bikes. Fast attack and decent infiltrators can tie up the warrior squads by turn two forcing them to drop the portal early or not at all. IMO relying on reserve rolls is never good.

This isn't a raider assault list, Lem...this is a shooty army.

Staying on your board edge (even with GK) won't stop the list from doing it's thing.

No matter where you go, the Archon *will* assault you if he wants to.

Dracons on bikes are horrible IMO.

On turn two is when the portals get dropped, every game, so it's unlikely anyone is going to tie up the warrior squads.

You think two turns of reserve rolls isn't enough to get a substantial force out?

I've never had that problem myself.

1.) 2 turns is plenty of time to get a substantial force out all things considered, that being said there of course is the chance that your dice blow and you dont get the majority of it in, oh well luck is a part of the game no matter how you look at it. Bottom line is that statistics are with you on this one.

2.) I tend to agree that if facing a guard army it would be a quick game one way or the other, especially if facing a mech guard, I just picture 3 hellhounds and three leman Russ's throwing 3 flame plates and 27 heavy bolter shots for 2 turns... Ouch

3.) I personally am a big fan of fielding 2 raiders and one haemunculi instead of troopers as the raiders have to be shot first, and then they block L.O.S. for a nice 190 points total. Although as you are trying to take that 7th troop choice I guess it wouldnt really work for you as your pulling from both the raiders and the DL to do that.

4.) It also seems a shame to me you didnt have the 5 points a squad to give the wyches plasma nades, although I see why your list doesnt need the succubus.

2 raiders and one haem....what? Do you mean the FNP twits or something else?

You are correct, the wyches won't get off to fight against anything that isn't as sucky as they are or worse. SM Scouts is about all they can handle. They do wonders against tau and IG though. Regular marines and aspect warriors die to the shooting the army puts out well enough.

Guard can chew through the warriors, that's what the AT units are for. Often as not, guard players won't bring their russes withing 36" of the warriors so it's just the big template hits that will come in.

It really does help winning turn 1 against guard, that leaves you with just 1 turn of fire to take. You might be taking checks on both squads, which is always nail biting, but in the end that's the way the cookie crumbles, right?

What about 87 marines of which I could up my body count to 92 if I wanted at that point total? I have been running 87 marines from 3ed on up and the list has not lost a game at 1850. I have the body count and the almighty three plus save. I also have the unit size for damage control which is key to the list.

If I did happen to get first turn you could be looking at a fall back which would remove your distance for WWP. The following turn would see the demish of your last few men to assist them on heading off the boards.

If I did happen to get 2nd turn you would still be looking at a fall back which would remove your distance for WWP.

In both cases its not a major draw back for your WWP because of the amount of movement you can cover over all. It will still help control the amount of damage you inflict on my army. At 2k points I would just upgrade some of the gear in my army as I really dont play at this point total.

Would enjoy the match up though,,,,

You mean a heavy bolter spam army?

They, asscannon speeders, asscannon termies, and mix/max las/plas squads are all being removed from the game.

So, your marine army list will soon be reduced to nothing but a pitiful band.

Does having a clusterclump of marines scare me, is that the question? No, not really.

If you like, I can show you the army that'll kill 90 marines in 3 turns. It's quite exciting, for me anyway. I'm sure you wouldn't like it. Truth is, I designed it for the TMC and 85 man marine armies everyone thinks is invincible.

Usually the first thing I hear is 'well you obviously don't play with enough terrain' or my favorite 'well your opponents must suck'.

no i believe it. with my DE (before i sold them) i killed 100 marines to the man, and managed to capture 40 slaves. my oh my did that Kabal have a good dinner that night

Well, it basically comes down to this.

Either you are cramped in one corner with your marines, which gives my plasma cannons lots and lots of hits.

Or, you are spread out on both flanks, and I can come out and zap 40 marines dead on one side then come kill the other 40.

Given what you said about falling back, I'm guessing you've never played a WWP army since units that fall back never could (and currently never can) place a WWP.

I designed this list so if I'm facing massive heavy bolters, I can place my WWP immediately as soon as it's my turn and I'm still not crippled.

Here's the math:

Deploy 12" in. Drop WWP, extend my board edge 15" in.

Everything jumps out 12", vehicles have a 36" range and the troops have a 12" range. If you aren't setup at 12" (so you can avoid being shot by the troops), odds are I'm going to be able to avoid some of your HB fire. If you setup 8.99 down to 5.99 inches in, I can still hit you with most everything just by getting off my transports. If you setup 5.99 inches in or less, I'm going to move my basic squads forward because you'll get only one turn of HB shooting at me with multiple units. It's really easy to hide from HB setup 6" back just by deploying laterally, ya know.

If you've played DE before with a foot archon coming off a raider, you know if he has a 15" lead he can assault pretty much anywhere...so keep that in mind. The math is 15+12+3+[1..6]+12. In short, if you can shoot me with heavy bolters, he can assault you.

I guess I'm just not afraid of many armies anymore, it's the generals I look at and all you tell me by saying 90 marines are unbeaten is you either outspend others at your FLGS or you don't play against certain Xenos armies, because foot slogging marines have many weaknesses if you know where to look.

I play combat squads and the over all effect will change my list some what but it might be a good thing.

I only run six heavy bolters, two per five man squad which is key on allowing me to set up my heavy weapon and prepare my assault down the way.

Only run tactical marine in my 1850 as it is to costly for the other stuff.

All my squads are five men with a single upgrade unless they can take multi ie dev squads.

Five men las cannon
Five men las cannon
Five men las cannon
Five men plasma gun
five men plasma gun
five men plasma gun

Yes things might change but I see combat squads in DA and BA dex as a good thing. I call them five men combat squads because of 2nd ed when the rule came out. Thats what 10 reduced to five was called thus allowing you to buy just five men. As you can see that I have three units up top which can turn into six troop slots. So yes my list will change some but the over all effect will stay the same as I will be able to rebreak them, which might be a bonus.

Clusterclump would give you the edge so no I would not clusterclump.

Most of the boards I play on have 25 plus terrian and or upwards to 90 percent ( zilla list ) sometimes. I dont pick the terrian as it is already on the boards. Even if we did remove the terrian I think I would still be able to handle you WWP advance. I was simply just saying this is what I have and I should in all accounts take your WWP first wave advance.

To start I am going to have 17 units on the board of which is going to be shooting and or getting ready to take on your WWP. So the question is how much will spill out to face 17 units. Even if you did get half of your army out on turn three, that will give you what six to ten units ie counting vehicles.

Like I said I really think it would be hella fun to play as I see this list giving me hell on the start. Though looking at numbers and the fact that I get a chunk load of saves ie 3 plus to make. I should do fine to wheather your first round though the only way to find out would be to play each other.

I do like your list though and enjoy reading up on them.

Side note.......It would be fun to pop smoke inside Rhinos and watch you come on via your WWP? Could do the six rhino wall? though back on topic hehe.

Bolters,,,

90 percent. Gee can you play fantasy on those boards too? lol

Yes, you can do the 6 rhino wall.

That's what the on-board 2 units with 2 dark lances are for.

If you play on boards where you can hide 6 rhinos with ease, that's gotta be a record or something.

Can hide clown cars and sh*t. lol

yea the game is supposed to have a decent amount of cover, while still maintaining sizable enough fire lanes. otherwise the game just becomes a big close range shoot fest, and/or melee. not too much fun IMO, unless your playing the DE, close combat will be really easy to get to in that case

90 percent. Gee can you play fantasy on those boards too?

RTT in Ok city which most of the boards had 60 plus percent terrian. The 2nd match was at least 85 to 90 percent level two and up. Yes it was tuff but fun none the less.

If you play on boards where you can hide 6 rhinos with ease, that's gotta be a record or something.

Yes that would be a record but I never said anything about hiding rhinos?

Either you are cramped in one corner with your marines, which gives my plasma cannons lots and lots of hits.

Said that I dont clump up but you will find a good amount of men in an area. So at best you will get one guy with plasma cannon and maybe a partial.

Given what you said about falling back, I'm guessing you've never played a WWP army since units that fall back never could (and currently never can) place a WWP.

The falling back part was more for fun as you should be able to pass your ld check and if you did break. You could always regroup next turn if you did not find the board edge because you should be above 50 percent.

foot archon coming off a raider, you know if he has a 15" lead he can assault pretty much anywhere...so keep that in mind. The math is 15+12+3+[1..6]+12

Yes I know about the Archon and his 20 mile run of which a plasma pistol to the face ended his life on one my matches. The other was the best hit I have ever had with a vindi. If the template move it was going to hit something of mine but I rolled a hit which removed everything except the archon. Ret plus that special character and then the archon died to bolter fire. Archon is an IC and IC die with out support.

I guess I'm just not afraid of many armies anymore, it's the generals I look at and all you tell me by saying 90 marines are unbeaten is you either outspend others at your FLGS or you don't play against certain Xenos armies, because foot slogging marines have many weaknesses if you know where to look.

Yes marines have many weaknesses if you know where to look, so do all the other armies if you know where to look.

I was simply just posting my army and what it had in it. I know it would be a great match up just looking over your list. I also know that you would be hard pressed to kill this many marines, 87. To many things in your list allow me a chance to save, this is the reason for the logic.

enjoyed chatting.

A bit OT

Tarval: What store in OKC uses that much terrain?

Back OT

Stelek: That list is rough. I'm surprised the small squads of wyches don't fizzle out quick, but then again there is alot of crap coming in and shooting at once. What was the best counter anyone's managed?

220 imperial guard.

LOL

yes that'd do the job.

Battlefield, OKC.

Dont get me wrong as its a hell of a good list.

Why don't you pay the extra 2pts for the wych weapons?

They suck?

There aren't enough Wyches to matter?

The Wyches aren't assault units in this list?

okay, sorry. Than is there anything in this list other than the lord that you assault with?

The Wyches do assault on occasion, but that's just to tie something up that I think I can tie up but don't want to shoot just yet. Make sense?