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SilverAlien wrote:
Rubrics don't actually tackle anything better though. That's the point. Inceptors consistently out damage them against every single type of target.

Maybe they don't need to. They'll get their juice from synergy with the HQs, or custom strategems (which they'll produce more of than troops).

This discussion is missing synergy and tactics, those are kind of relevant in a TT wargame. It's not always just about math.

Don't say that, you'll summon the wrath of the monofocused math nerds who think they have it all figured out without having realized that they haven't taken every single variable in to consideration.

Again-Inceptors are anywhere from 150% to 667% more effective (call it only twice as effective, in most cases).

What synergy is going to OUTRIGHT DOUBLE the effectiveness of Rubric Marines? They could reroll all hits and all wounds, and that just MIGHT bring them on par.

Just throwing it out there but what if power levels are scored withing the context of their respective roles. Such as rubrics being power level 8 troops, whereas interceptors are power level 8 fast attack and shouldn't be compared directly against eachother as their roles in the battlefield are completely different and thus judged with different parameters. Just a theory but figure it's worth asking about.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-Inceptors are anywhere from 150% to 667% more effective (call it only twice as effective, in most cases).

What synergy is going to OUTRIGHT DOUBLE the effectiveness of Rubric Marines? They could reroll all hits and all wounds, and that just MIGHT bring them on par.

Or force the enemy to reroll hits or wounds. Or reroll armor saves. Or gain two saves. Or gain the ability to shoot longer range. And so on and so forth. We don't know. You're taking two units in a vacuum, that honestly I don't even feel are intended to be equivalent units to begin with.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-Inceptors are anywhere from 150% to 667% more effective (call it only twice as effective, in most cases).

What synergy is going to OUTRIGHT DOUBLE the effectiveness of Rubric Marines? They could reroll all hits and all wounds, and that just MIGHT bring them on par.

Did you miss the part where they have a Psyker?

Another thing to keep in mind is expanding the squad is 6PL, not 8, so it's obvious they're paying a 2PL premium for that Psyker up front. Considering a Primaris Psyker costs 50 points all by himself and has no other redeeming features, that sounds pretty reasonable. Psykers ain't cheap.

And while having basically two heavy bolters on each model is a pretty stupid level of firepower, they're still only getting 6 wounds per squad with no ability to expand.

Now, that said, the power level is likely still off because as mentioned, Inceptors seem to have been rated on a scale of roughly 20pts/PL, while the Rubrics are most likely around 15pts/PL (to be honest, I'm expecting a Rubric to cost around 14pts/model compared to 53/model for the Inceptors). But that's a problem with the Power Levels, not the Rubrics. Just play with points, and it'll be fine.

Well, so far it seems that "power level" resembles the points costs of 7th edition and prior - meaning they are hardly more than an estimation of what a unit can do. Sometimes they are way off, like half the Chaos, Ork and Eldar Codizes in 7th edition. And obviously GW chose the same answer as in 7th: free upgrades. Power levels don't count any upgrades, just like all formations were free before. You couldn't compare a unit of Crimson slaughter CSM with Mark of Nurgle with Death Guard CSM - they did cost exactly the same, however, the former wouldn't have any chance against the latter.

However, the new edition seems to bring us tested, balanced points costs additionally instead of the rubbish we had before.
We haven't seen those yet. Also, we don't know enough about synergy and the TS codex to estimate if the power levels turn out reasonable in the end. If you still find power levels unbalanced - play with points instead.

 Roknar wrote:
It's hard to stay polite and objective when OP is basically operating on the following premises as far as I'm concerned.

No its hard to be polite when you don't have a leg to stand on so you just make ridiculous claims and straw-man every argument.

 Roknar wrote:
Power levels are equal to points and allow a making an definitive judgement on balance.

Strawman. I have not once said power level is the same as points. Unless your going to argue that the gap, and there is a gap, between these two units with can be made up by 15-20 points. Stop being dishonest.

 Roknar wrote:
Balance/value of a unit is determined entirely by the ability to kill the opposing unit. Unit roles, ability to lock down objectives, etc are not a thing.

Yes that why I keep referencing their similarity in toughness, Massively better movement by Inceptors, and deployment options. The first allows them to stay on an OBJ and the second allows them to move to that obj. the last one lets them be in the best possible position to execute the previous two.

 Roknar wrote:
Inceptors and rubrics are the only units to exist, there is no conceivable reason for either to ever engage another unit.

Again never said that. Please keep putting words in my mouth. And the fact that the math shows that Rubrics are going to preform worse against every type of unit you ignore that.

 Roknar wrote:
Not knowing all the facts has no bearing on the value of a unit. Neither core rules, detachment rules or wargear/unit special rules have a snowballs chance in hell to skew the balance in one units' favour, because GW said the game will be perfectly balanced and there is no reason to believe that might not be case or that GW has a proven track record of that absolutely not being the case.

Not knowing all the facts CAN have an affect but how much of an affect? There are two question marks for BOTH units, and if we assume that those two things are equal

 Roknar wrote:
There is also no way for rubrics to EVER engage inceptors on their terms, since Inceptors will ALWAYS deepstrike next to rubrics and make their charge and they will NEVER whiff. There is absolutely nothing the rubric player can do about it.

Whiff what? The charge. Do honestly believe that units with jump packs will not have some sort of boost to their charge?

If you are making a list, use points. If you want a quick game with and you don't have a list at hand (because different size in armies for example), use power.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, so far it seems that "power level" resembles the points costs of 7th edition and prior - meaning they are hardly more than an estimation of what a unit can do. Sometimes they are way off, like half the Chaos, Ork and Eldar Codizes in 7th edition. And obviously GW chose the same answer as in 7th: free upgrades. Power levels don't count any upgrades, just like all formations were free before. You couldn't compare a unit of Crimson slaughter CSM with Mark of Nurgle with Death Guard CSM - they did cost exactly the same, however, the former wouldn't have any chance against the latter.

However, the new edition seems to bring us tested, balanced points costs additionally instead of the rubbish we had before.
We haven't seen those yet. Also, we don't know enough about synergy and the TS codex to estimate if the power levels turn out reasonable in the end. If you still find power levels unbalanced - play with points instead.

No Power Level is the Devs taking the point cost of the units with "half upgrades" and then dividing by 20.


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 ross-128 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-Inceptors are anywhere from 150% to 667% more effective (call it only twice as effective, in most cases).

What synergy is going to OUTRIGHT DOUBLE the effectiveness of Rubric Marines? They could reroll all hits and all wounds, and that just MIGHT bring them on par.

Did you miss the part where they have a Psyker?

Another thing to keep in mind is expanding the squad is 6PL, not 8, so it's obvious they're paying a 2PL premium for that Psyker up front. Considering a Primaris Psyker costs 50 points all by himself and has no other redeeming features, that sounds pretty reasonable. Psykers ain't cheap.

And while having basically two heavy bolters on each model is a pretty stupid level of firepower, they're still only getting 6 wounds per squad with no ability to expand.

Now, that said, the power level is likely still off because as mentioned, Inceptors seem to have been rated on a scale of roughly 20pts/PL, while the Rubrics are most likely around 15pts/PL (to be honest, I'm expecting a Rubric to cost around 14pts/model compared to 53/model for the Inceptors). But that's a problem with the Power Levels, not the Rubrics. Just play with points, and it'll be fine.

So you think the base cost of Rubrics will be 100 points...LMAO okay.



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Ecdain wrote:
Just throwing it out there but what if power levels are scored withing the context of their respective roles. Such as rubrics being power level 8 troops, whereas interceptors are power level 8 fast attack and shouldn't be compared directly against eachother as their roles in the battlefield are completely different and thus judged with different parameters. Just a theory but figure it's worth asking about.

Why would you create a complexly different system to judge the power of a unit when you have a system and can take that system add up the points from that system and then just divide by a number?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Rubrics don't actually tackle anything better though. That's the point. Inceptors consistently out damage them against every single type of target.

Maybe they don't need to. They'll get their juice from synergy with the HQs, or custom strategems (which they'll produce more of than troops).

This discussion is missing synergy and tactics, those are kind of relevant in a TT wargame. It's not always just about math.

The results of your tactics are a derivative of the math. If you have the best tactics in the world but are going against M1A1 and all you have are shovels to hit it with your going to lose.

@op

You have called me out on the one bit of math that was wrong.
I accidently messed 2 fractures up. But are ignoring the other bits that are wrong in yours.

The main problems are:
All mistakes are stacked in favor of your argument rather than both ways.
You forget to take the aspiring sorcerer into account and he is the main part of the functionatlity. Read ross' last posts about how ridiculous that is. ( Tough I can understand in 7E the sorcerer is utterly useless because of the Tzeentch discipline wich SUCKS)

 Melissia wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-Inceptors are anywhere from 150% to 667% more effective (call it only twice as effective, in most cases).

What synergy is going to OUTRIGHT DOUBLE the effectiveness of Rubric Marines? They could reroll all hits and all wounds, and that just MIGHT bring them on par.

Or force the enemy to reroll hits or wounds. Or reroll armor saves. Or gain two saves. Or gain the ability to shoot longer range. And so on and so forth. We don't know. You're taking two units in a vacuum, that honestly I don't even feel are intended to be equivalent units to begin with.

No one is saying they should be perfectly equal. The only group technically saying that here are the Devs (both units are power level 8) I understand their are counter units and that their going to be more powerful at the same power level. But look at the gap between these two units. Its huge Inceptors preform better every where except in CC. Inceptors can wipe the entire Rubric Squad off the map in a single turn. In 7th right now if you want to do that you need double the points usually, less if its a counter unit. There is something wrong here either the Rubrics are way over priced or Inceptors are under priced.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

It doesn't matter which way you slice this apple its rotten through and through.

 Roknar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
40k Facebook page said Khorne Daemonkin works under the new system by sharing the Chaos and Knorne rules to unit inside of a single FOC.

Tzeentch Daemons would likewise unit with TSons under Tzeentch and Chaos.

I'm curious what kind of effect that has on our daemonic units. That was a pretty significant change from normal csm.

They can share Tzeentch and Chaos themed rules, but not the Ones specific to Traitor Astartes and Daemons with each other.

I was referring to dameons of khorne possessed and warp talons. That change just made so much sense, even having both the mark and daemon of khorne since a possessed is effectively two entities in one.
Hopefully we'll keep that,except now also with other gods.

As far the storm troopers, I believe you can mix them but you only get faction benefits if have one or the other. That is you would get all imperial abilities but neither inquisition nor scions benefits.
Having an all scions detachment would give you imperial AND scion abilities, but you don't loose command points for mixing.

Marks in AoS give the god specific keyword and any rules that go with it.

The prevention of mixing rules at high levels is to prevent things like the Barkstar. That said I'm sure Inquisitors will have a rule to mitigae it since they represent the Emperor himself to most forces of the Imperium.


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I think people are confused about Power. It's been said by the Devs that the rating is an averae between the unit taking every single option and no options. This means that for units with no options they'll be sitting closer to where they normally would while units like Thousand Sons are actually paying for an uograde they can't take yet (the gun that unlocks at 10 models).

It's less the strict strength of the unit and more an average cost of the unit. Using it to determine if something is OP or not isn't going to work because the cost of the best wargear the unit can take may not even be something they can taken in the smallest size unit you can field.

This makes units more expensive to field, but cheaper to buy extra bodies for.

Things like Pyskers will also make units more expensive to start with, but not be charged again as you add more to the unit.

Basically the entire premise of using power to determine balance in a vacuum is an idea that fails from the inception due to the nature of how they determine power levels.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Here you go.

As far as I can tell the same thing that happened in the last edition is happening in this one. The Sorcerer is gak and costs a feth ton. He's the most expensive part of the unit and is best in melee, rest of the unit costs about what he does by himself but do almost no damage in CC. Its a 150 point unit that is capable of 75 points worth of shooting and 75 points worth of CC. Its a unit that is good at neither shooting nor CC but has the cost of a unit that should be very good at one or the other or good at both.

I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Tactics aren't a derivative of math.

First, the whole concept of tactical effectiveness has been formally defined for at least 2500 years. Hit the enemy where they are weak, avoid them where they are strong.

If Rubrics win in CC, focus on that. If they can hide from DS in a Transport, focus on that. If they can get psychic support or standoff range to swing the shooting phase in their favor, focus on that. If they can counter-reserve or piecemeal whatever SM leaves on the table, focus on that. If they win more objectives as troops, or give you superior strategems by filling troops slots in your FOC, focus on that. And attack multiwound units with weapons than punish a multiwound statline.

You are already 100% locked into footslogging them with zero protection against a DS unit, while shooting them with weapons that don't deal more than 1W.

Show me that this is the best tactical application for Rubrics, and I'll concede you have a point.

Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

I don't think the inceptors are that good. So I have to disagree.

You are acting like there is a second coming of scatbikes. There isn't so far.

They are going to be losing Fearless, so they're definitely going to be cheaper than the 23/model that they cost in the 6e codex because Fearless ain't free. Space Marines have also had a point shaved off them just because, so I'd expect that discount to carry over to everything that is based on the Space Marine statline.

They do still have their AP -2 guns and bonus to saves against small arms though, so those might push them up a couple points, maybe 18-20 total on the high end. Death to the False Emperor is probably just a new name for Veterans of the Long War, so no change there.

This doesn't mean the starting squad is going to be under 100 points of course. Remember: you're paying for a Psyker up front, and Psykers ain't cheap! The Psyker by himself can easily add 40-50 points just by being a Psyker. I mean seriously, are you expecting to get a Psyker for free?

That's why it's so useful that they can expand their squad so much though. Because rubrics are so much cheaper than the Sorcerer, it's far cheaper to expand the squad to get more wounds and guns than it is to buy a second squad (though of course, a second squad does get you a second Psyker).

Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tactics aren't a derivative of math.

In this game they are

Yoyoyo wrote:
First, the whole concept of tactical effectiveness has been formally defined for at least 2500 years. Hit the enemy where they are weak, avoid them where they are strong.

It has and that's not how its defined. Use your resources where they are most effective. Strength and weakness are irrelevant. Effectiveness

Yoyoyo wrote:
If Rubrics win in CC, focus on that. If they can hide from DS in a Transport, focus on that. If they can get psychic support or standoff range to swing the shooting phase in their favor, focus on that. If they can counter-reserve or piecemeal whatever SM leaves on the table, focus on that. If they win more objectives as troops, or give you superior strategems by filling troops slots in your FOC, focus on that. And attack multiwound units with weapons than punish a multiwound statline.

Rubrics do not win in CC unless you have a full Str unit and you get to charge. If you manage to do that with a unit that has half the movement speed, you should join the military and go to OCS.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You are already 100% locked into footslogging them with zero protection against a DS unit, while shooting them with weapons that don't deal more than 1W.

Yes because there is no Rhino upgrade option on the data sheet. Which means they are not counting that into the "half cost".

Yoyoyo wrote:
Show me that this is the best tactical application for Rubrics, and I'll concede you have a point.

Show me that deploying Inceptors the way I said would be unlikely or even difficult in any way. The simple fact is Rubrics have to be put on the board first, Inceptors don't, which means no matter what if Inceptors want to unload on your Rubrics they are going to, and the only way to prevent that is to being 2 20 man units of cultists to bubble wrap them, which still wouldn't help because they DS in Shoot Rubrics Charge cultists, on thier turn they fall back Shoot rubrics, repeat till their dead.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think you're overreacting without seeing the entire game or the matched points. Power levels seem very coarse. Personally, I fear the 1K sons more at this point because of their save mods.

Now looking at PL we have something good with the rules leak. We know Inceptors are a single 3 man unit that has two weapons and we know they are going to cost around 160 points. which means PL is probably Points/20. Its super easy to do and they don't have to come up with a system. Lets assume the PL gap is as big as possible. 7.5 for Rubrics, and 8.4 for Inceptors, rounded up and down respectively. even then you end up with only an 18 point difference. So if you keep the prices reasonable, add a Rhino 40 points, add an Icon which is going to almost double ranged capabilities which is unreasonable in general but keeping something like that to only 40 points, the base cost of Rubrics would be around 60-80 points, which is wholly unreasonable.

Have you somehow missed the post about PL/points ratio I did JUST LAST PAGE?

From merely 4 units that we know both PL and point cost of, we got a wide range of 16.666 to 21.143

4 units. and the edge cases are 25% apart.
And that's for units with FIXED LOADOUTS

Power level means NOTHING about the actual point value of units. at all.
Its supposed to give a rough estimate that once you pile WHOLE ARMIES around it, it sorta makes sense that the two armies are at the same ballpark

Because inceptors are effectively crisis suits, like any FSE player would know-the individual suit is rather OP for the cost/effect ratio, but as you pile them they become a burden on the army as a whole because you got too little manpower to hold ground, or to control the board.
Inceptors share the exact same issue. the more you field them, the quicker you run out of points with very actual board presence. you can alpha things, you can defiantly nuke targets of choice-but you lack staying power. you get easily blown off the table by a few bad rolls, or some well-positioned shooters you just can't reach.
The new deepstrike-without-error is a double edged sword. I honestly am not sure its better than old scatter for the user
If I place a circle of 17" inch around my defended target-you can't deepstrike, at all. while before it would have been a really safe drop. heck, I used to pull 5-inch gap drops all the time (it seems that the more balls I had, the more luck I had with scattering, its the "safe" drops that got horribly messed, while the balsy ones went perfectly)
So, I can easily force you to land as far as 30" away from the thing I'm trying to defend (counting three sets on 9" and the model size of the defenders), heck its yet another advantage of bigger model count-you can lock out more of the table from deepstrikes.


Back to the original point, the PL is vague, very much so.
Its not reflective of points, it has huge divergence even counting just within the starter set's primaris.
The Rubrics are 5 for 6 PL and 2 more to upgrade a rubric to a sorcerer, so the sorcerer alone counts for 3.2 PL of the unit. this calculated that the sorcerer can deny spells (inceptors got no equivalent skill)
Rubric PL calculates the following unknown factors: DttFE (we got a rumor, nothing solid), icon of flame (theoretically could be insane), faction spells (again, theoretically insane), etc.


Your entire analysis, and panic induced by it, is based on partial information, and a completely bs premises that PL equal points.

 ross-128 wrote:
They are going to be losing Fearless, so they're definitely going to be cheaper than the 23/model that they cost in the 6e codex because Fearless ain't free. Space Marines have also had a point shaved off them just because, so I'd expect that discount to carry over to everything that is based on the Space Marine statline.

They do still have their AP -2 guns and bonus to saves against small arms though, so those might push them up a couple points, maybe 18-20 total on the high end. Death to the False Emperor is probably just a new name for Veterans of the Long War, so no change there.

This doesn't mean the starting squad is going to be under 100 points of course. Remember: you're paying for a Psyker up front, and Psykers ain't cheap! The Psyker by himself can easily add 40-50 points just by being a Psyker. I mean seriously, are you expecting to get a Psyker for free?

That's why it's so useful that they can expand their squad so much though. Because rubrics are so much cheaper than the Sorcerer, it's far cheaper to expand the squad to get more wounds and guns than it is to buy a second squad (though of course, a second squad does get you a second Psyker).

Except to keep the prices reasonable your going to have to the base cost below 100 to keep the cost of the upgrades reasonable.

Tactics were related strictly to math in 7th, with everything being rewritten in 8th we'll need to wait and see if that holds true going forward.

That said, Inceptors might get a power bump once their full kit comes out with weapon options. Right now they're Power 8 because they have no options and just one loadout, but with new options they could see a power bump due to how power is worked out by the design team.

Your squad has a built in psyker. Expect them to be expensive. The question is whether 8th lets you leverage that much value out of them.

Man and still going. Why? You're 8 pages in and you've convinced nobody of anything. You're a half step shy of literally banging your head against the wall.

Oh btw according to anecdotes from warhammerfest Deathguard kick the gak out of numarines atm. Gonna do a thread for them too?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They are going to be losing Fearless, so they're definitely going to be cheaper than the 23/model that they cost in the 6e codex because Fearless ain't free. Space Marines have also had a point shaved off them just because, so I'd expect that discount to carry over to everything that is based on the Space Marine statline.

They do still have their AP -2 guns and bonus to saves against small arms though, so those might push them up a couple points, maybe 18-20 total on the high end. Death to the False Emperor is probably just a new name for Veterans of the Long War, so no change there.

This doesn't mean the starting squad is going to be under 100 points of course. Remember: you're paying for a Psyker up front, and Psykers ain't cheap! The Psyker by himself can easily add 40-50 points just by being a Psyker. I mean seriously, are you expecting to get a Psyker for free?

That's why it's so useful that they can expand their squad so much though. Because rubrics are so much cheaper than the Sorcerer, it's far cheaper to expand the squad to get more wounds and guns than it is to buy a second squad (though of course, a second squad does get you a second Psyker).

Except to keep the prices reasonable your going to have to the base cost below 100 to keep the cost of the upgrades reasonable.

What part of "you get a Psyker" are you not understanding?

another thing to consider is that rubrics could be built in a way that'd make em nasty objective holders. they may not be that great at killing inceptors, but I imagine a full squad with warpflamers would be annoying to dislodge. and proably shred CC units.


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 ross-128 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They are going to be losing Fearless, so they're definitely going to be cheaper than the 23/model that they cost in the 6e codex because Fearless ain't free. Space Marines have also had a point shaved off them just because, so I'd expect that discount to carry over to everything that is based on the Space Marine statline.

They do still have their AP -2 guns and bonus to saves against small arms though, so those might push them up a couple points, maybe 18-20 total on the high end. Death to the False Emperor is probably just a new name for Veterans of the Long War, so no change there.

This doesn't mean the starting squad is going to be under 100 points of course. Remember: you're paying for a Psyker up front, and Psykers ain't cheap! The Psyker by himself can easily add 40-50 points just by being a Psyker. I mean seriously, are you expecting to get a Psyker for free?

That's why it's so useful that they can expand their squad so much though. Because rubrics are so much cheaper than the Sorcerer, it's far cheaper to expand the squad to get more wounds and guns than it is to buy a second squad (though of course, a second squad does get you a second Psyker).

Except to keep the prices reasonable your going to have to the base cost below 100 to keep the cost of the upgrades reasonable.

What part of "you get a Psyker" are you not understanding?

the guy belives power levels should be purely equal, and that there should be no room for roles, individual unit strengths etc.

This thread is silly. Here's something to consider. Rubrics get to shoot the inceptors first because inceptors can't deepstrike, because if we're going to be silly enough to do this single unit comparison half your single unit army must be placed on the board. Seriously though different units have different strengths just because two have an equal power level doesn't mean that they should have an equal chance of killing each other. That logic should be easy to set as terrible. Lascannon pres and autocannon pres have the same power level since they're the same tank but I'm pretty sure one is heavily favored in that figbt.

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines got cheaper because they were and are gak. They are super gak in 8th.

I dunno. They got the indirect buff in that their Heavy weapons can fire on the move now. It's definitely something you can't ignore, and a Melta/Multi/Combi Squad from a Pod doesn't sound as bad.