Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Whatcha think who is better and why I just wanna see what various people think.
/debate

I don't have any personal opinion on the matter, but:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dakka_Dakka_Ork_Takktica#Ork_Boyz

My kneejerk reaction was that this is a silly retread of something that's been discussed at length already, but then it occurred to me that with run rules on the horizon, the retreading may actually be worthwhile. When you can use your shooting phase to move more instead, there's much less of an incentive to take shootas. Could it be enough to tip the balance from the currently favoured shootas to sluggas? There's the small downside of the PF change (if it extends to PKs) causing the slugga Nob to lose one attack, putting it on par with the shoota PK Nob, but that seems rather minor.

personally, I think Slugga boyz are, purely because both wont do have amounts of damage in the shooting phase, not having good balistic skill and all, so HtH will be the decider, and as Sluggas would be aiming for the Charge they should win-a full squad getting 120 attacks at strength 4 and all

This is discussing 5th edition, assuming the rumors to be (mostly) true, mainly about run.

I personally like sluggas, but thats more of a preference. I think the codex was probably designed and play tested under 5th edition rules, so they are probably supposed to be balanced.

The shootas allow you to be versatile, shooting against an assaulty army and assaulting a shooty army. However, this will probably have them waste some of their capabilities, especially if you are assaulting, you could have 1 more attack each. The thing is, they are also wasting some of their capabilities when shooting, as when you look at their profile, it just screams assault (except for the I). They could also do both, move forward and shoot, then assault when possible, most likely fleeting during to get into assault.

Sluggas give less versatility, but have a much more defined role, and are better at it. They move forward, run, and then waaagh when within 12 inches to try to get the charge off. Once in combat, they get an extra attack over shootas, every turn. One attack under furious charge gives a slightly better attack against MEQs (4+, 4+, save) than shootas (5+, 4+, save). After the first round of combat, the extra attack is the same as a single shot from a gun.

So, if the shootas are sitting in cover and sluggas assault, the sluggas will get 3 attacks and shootas will get 2. Sluggas, in general, will be more survivable due to not being shot at, unless they are engaged with a very strong unit.

So, I think that sluggas are better because they have a specific purpose, and can do it better than shootas. However, if you do come across a situation where shootas can shoot before they charge, they will be good, having 5 S4 attacks each, 2 hitting on 5+ and 3 hitting (against MEQs) on 4+.

Probably Slugga boyz, especially with 5th coming since if you want to get there faster you can't shoot, you'll be running. Which effectively gives you another half movement phase on average.

It's a false dichotomy: Shoota Boyz complement Slugga Boyz.

I'd suggest they work best 1/2 & 1/2, with a ratio of 1:1 Shoota Mob to Slugga Mob, with the break going to Shoota Mobs since Sluggas need to make it into assault and so Shootas need to present the greater threat (or pummel the enemy harder if they don't take the bait).

I have been experimenting with both and I am still getting better results from the SLuggas. The shoota boyz look much better on paper and I actually prefer them for holding objectives. But in the end slugga boyz when me the battles while shootas just help out.

Slugga Boyz look so much better on paper for 5th Ed until you run against the army that out assaults you, where you wish you took the Shoota Boyz and can dance around them while throwing down more Dakka than is healthy for a single Shooting Phase.

Bottom Line - The margin of things that Sluuga Boyz beat in Close Combat that Shoota Boyz can't is exceptionally small.

Facts of the matter are that Slugga Boyz HAVE to be in close combat to be very effective where as Shoota Boyz do not.

There is also a lesson to be learned here for people who don't play the new Orks. They are not like the old Mobz of Slugga Boyz where anything they actually touched in assault died. Ork Mobz can very seriously be taken down in Assault now. Having the option to engage at a distance is a very good option to have.

Looking at the book and thinking of possible scenarios, my completely untested guess is a 3:2 ratio of shootas to sluggas. This is based on the assumption that I would want say 2 slugga units to just run across the board with 1 shoota unit in between, while the other two shootas take and hold an objective each in the middle and add supporting fire.

I would of course defer to Voodoo Boyz superior knowledge of the subject though. I also don't see myself painting up that many orks, but if I were to magically aquire a massive and painted army, 5 troop choices+ like that look to be a good investment.

At least in the current edition I have found that one unit of 30 shootas is enough, when combined properly with the other support options. Outfitted with 3 big shootas, this unit has the ability to put out 54 S4 shots at 18" and 9 S5 at up to 36" all while on the move. This makes them dangerous at everything but extreme range and one would assume something of a target. However, if you at the same time run two other squads of 30 sluggas all accompanied by the obligatory KFF mek, you get extremely resilient squads that will hardly ever break without being killed to the man. The secret as has been suggested is balance. I think that sluggas certainly have a place. They are superior in combat, especially in every round after the first, which is where mobs tend to fail.

Amazingly enouph all those shots ussualy only kill 2-3 marines if your lucky. The 18 inch range hampers them alot and you usualy need to move forward to get with in range any way. Oh and take Rockit lauchas you will kill more marines that way and have a chance agianst av.

I would probably take one squad front and center and two shoota squads on the sides. Either that or all Shootas.

Move + Run + Move + Fleet + Assault = Average of 25". Pretty darn good.

The other option of course is foot slogging shoota, and Sluggas in Trukks.

I am not sure what is involved in the tactics of timing your WAAAGH move. You might not want to run one unit and not run the Shoota units.

------
That, and Voodoo is probably right.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Slugga Boyz look so much better on paper for 5th Ed until you run against the army that out assaults you, where you wish you took the Shoota Boyz and can dance around them while throwing down more Dakka than is healthy for a single Shooting Phase.

Wha? Someone out assaulting Orks? That...no...surely not?

Voodoo is 100% right.

I ran 1/3 sluggas to 2/3 shootas, putting the sluggas out front to eat most of the enemy fire, because the shootas are actually the more valuable unit.

Orks are not ungodly assault troops anymore. They probably hit a little above their point cost, but when you figure 30 boyz are only 250 points, that's not saying a lot. And, while the rumour about being able to pull casualties from unengaged models helps orks a lot, consider that running into a unit of enemy assault troops can kill more than 10 boyz before you swing. And, you're slower, even with a fleet-turn, than a lot of the nasty things that will attack you. A unit of assault marines can easily inflict 15 or more wounds on you before you swing.

The nob does a lot of the killing against the hard targets anyway, and he's no different in either unit. Having the option to dakka away units that you don't want to have to fight in assault gives you tactical flexibility.

I understand Shootas are usefull for holding objectives, but I still think a squad of Sluggas is deadly in assault. A full squad with no upgrades for 180pts get 120 attacks on the charge, and thats after the 30 slugga shots they get first, thats going to give most enemies a headache at the bare minimum

You've got to be 18" away to shoot with them first, and if you do that, you're not Waaaghing to assault, so you're counting on someone leaving a unit within 12" of Sluggas to pull off that shot.

If LOS works as rumored (nothing blocks LOS, you can shoot through enemies and area terrain) then Shootas are even better because as Redbeard pointed out all those fast assaulty units that WILL TEAR ANY BOYZ A NEW ONE can't hide so well anymore, and Shoota Boyz from 24" away can shoot at them with their AP6 guns (so we don't really care that they get cover saves anyway).

And for those cases that you need to rush up and assault because you'll be outshot, the Shootas do that too, and they put out 90 Attacks on the charge with the same PK Nob output as the Sluggas.

The shoota is only 18 inches though. If you get close enouph for a whole mob of shootas to fire then you are most deffinatly in assault range with the new fleet rule. So instead of shooting take sluggas fleet yourself and get the ferious charge bonus.

Crawdadr wrote:The shoota is only 18 inches though. If you get close enouph for a whole mob of shootas to fire then you are most deffinatly in assault range with the new fleet rule. So instead of shooting take sluggas fleet yourself and get the ferious charge bonus.

So? I can move 6" and then fire 18". And with the leaked rules, if only ONE model is in range of the target then the entire squad can shoot, which makes Shoota Boyz absolutely devastating, probably one of the best units in the game.

And there is no "new" fleet rule. Things that don't have "Fleet" already can only run, which means they aren't charging me, and if they run closer I can move up, shoot them again and then charge in to get the best of both worlds.

Sorry "instead when da boyz runz ard deys gets close to shoot. But better tooz run longer and get stuck in gud un Proppa.

It that better

Wait, the new rules say as long as ONE model is in range of a target, the ENTIRE unit can shoot at that target if they have LOS?

Holy crap... why not run 6 units of shootas, 30 strong, strung out across the table in single or double lines? You could shoot everything with every unit, barring intervening terrain.