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I purchased an entire ork boy horde over the past month or two, and have modeled about half of them so far, with Shootas - shoota boyz seem superior to me, under 4th edition rules.

After seeing 5th edition however with running, slugga boyz seem like they might be a better choice. This frustrates me because I really prefer to the look of the shoota models, over the silly slugga+choppa poses. Think I could get away with using shootas as two-handed sluggas?

Thoughts?

No, I wouldn't think so.

BTW, I love that you are in doubt about your choices. It shows that there are several way to build Orks and they all have their justification.

Shootas are better in 5th still.

Now you dont get to consolidate onto fresh units either, so its more of a tradeoff.

Shoota Boyz will still be better in 5th, even more so.

First you have the very basic premise that Shoota Boyz start doing damage to the enemy on Turn 2. They have an effective threat radius of 24" in every direction. On top of their incredible shooting ability, they can constantly move and do damage to things that can beat them in assault.

They also have a very good assault power for a "shooting unit".

Sluuga Boyz have an effective threat radius of 12", or 12"+D6" on the Turn you Waagh. They can only do substantial damage in assault. Their shooting is highly ineffectual and should not be relied upon.

If you're absolutely lucky with Run/Waagh Rolls you can engage the enemy on Turn 2, assuming they don't run away from your advance. And in 5th, you can't consolidate into new combats, so when you do get your charge off, you're going to be stuck out in the open to shooting and counter assault - unlike 4th.

And Gork & Mork help the Ork player who takes tons of Slugga Boyz against units that can outperform them in assault (of which there are many). Fearless Boyz in big mobs means that when you get charged, you tend to stick around even if you take major losses; but then easily get cleaned up in your own assault phase as the mob goes below Fearless and then breaks due to LD mods on easy to kill Boyz.

I disagreed with Voodoo Boyz, until I read his argument and realized that he was right.

40kenthusiast wrote:I disagreed with Voodoo Boyz, until I read his argument and realized that he was right.

If only the rest of Dakka were as sensible as you.

I disagreed with Voodoo Boyz, read his post and realised I was right. Funny how that works .

People have overestimated the shooting of shoota boyz – if you wouldn’t rely on the rapid firing of guardsmen to kill marines then you shouldn’t rely on the shoota – troop for troop they’re exactly as effective as each other.

The two units are unique and represent very different battle field roles.

Shoota boyz have effective shooting and effective melee. This allows them to fill an adaptable role in your army list, with the option to provide fire support before piling into an enemy unit and driving them from the field, or moving to an objective and holding it while providing fire support.

Slugga boyz remain the primary option in the ork list for driving MEQ units off the field. Just about everything else will nickel and dime the marines, relying on forcing piles of saves to take out a few marines. When you have to kill every single model to stop a marine unit claiming an objective, that just won’t do. In this situation slugga boyz with their superior melee come into their own.

Fortunately you don’t have to pick one or the other. Take both.

sebster wrote:I disagreed with Voodoo Boyz, read his post and realised I was right. Funny how that works .

People have overestimated the shooting of shoota boyz – if you wouldn’t rely on the rapid firing of guardsmen to kill marines then you shouldn’t rely on the shoota – troop for troop they’re exactly as effective as each other.

The two units are unique and represent very different battle field roles.

Shoota boyz have effective shooting and effective melee. This allows them to fill an adaptable role in your army list, with the option to provide fire support before piling into an enemy unit and driving them from the field, or moving to an objective and holding it while providing fire support.

Slugga boyz remain the primary option in the ork list for driving MEQ units off the field. Just about everything else will nickel and dime the marines, relying on forcing piles of saves to take out a few marines. When you have to kill every single model to stop a marine unit claiming an objective, that just won’t do. In this situation slugga boyz with their superior melee come into their own.

Fortunately you don’t have to pick one or the other. Take both.

The problem with that logic is that Shoota Boyz CAN indeed throw down the number of shots needed to put serious dents in MEQ squads. On top of that, if you're up against a bog standard MEQ army, where you want to be in assault to win the game, most of the times the targets that you charge will still lose to Shoota Boyz on the Charge just as they will lose to Slugga Boyz.

The problem with new Orks and assault is the fact that they are definitely beatable by a number of units, and Slugga Boyz don't offer very much more in CC than Shootas do - while at the same time Shootas can beat Sluggas in overall casualties inflicted if they're able to shoot before charging.

And this doesn't address the fact that if you come up against an army that can very much out assault you (Nids, Blood Angels, etc), then any Sluggas you take are likely wasted where the Shootas will be able to soften the targets up enough so the eventual Melee goes in the Ork players favor.

Likewise if there are armies where you can be out shot and need to be in CC ASAP (IG, Tau, etc), Shootas will probably do just as well as the Sluggas will running along and getting into CC.

Also given the new rules for CC mean that you can't consolidate-hop into new-assaults, and most CC's will end the turn you charge, means your 6+ Save Boyz who are probably out of KFF range because they charged are about to take a ton of retaliatory shooting.

Also, the fact is that you only loose a little less then 25% effeciveness on the charge(or less then 33% in following rounds) with shootas, while gaining a whole lot of shooting attacks over quite some range. All this if you waagh when getting into combat.. if you just assult and get the shooting round off shootas actually will make more damage on the charging round too.

But as said, the biggest problem will be not consolidating into new combats but standing around for the round of rapidefire that will follow.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

The problem with new Orks and assault is the fact that they are definitely beatable by a number of units, and Slugga Boyz don't offer very much more in CC than Shootas do - while at the same time Shootas can beat Sluggas in overall casualties inflicted if they're able to shoot before charging.

Kallbrand wrote:if you just assult and get the shooting round off shootas actually will make more damage on the charging round too.

30 Shoota boyz

Shooting Phase

60 shots
20 hits
10 wounds
3,33 dead Marines

Assault Phase

90 attacks
45 hits
22,5 wounds
7,5 dead Marines

Total: 10,83 dead Marines



30 Slugga boyz

Shooting Phase

30 shots
10 hits
5 wounds
1,66 dead Marines

Assault Phase

120 attacks
60 hits
30 wounds
10 dead Marines

Total: 11,66 dead Marines


When corrected for Marines hitting first it comes to:

Shootas: 10,33 dead Marines

Sluggas: 10,99 dead Marines


Not a big difference, but a difference none the less.

Does that difference make it up for the increased versatility of Shoota boyz? Not in my mind.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:The problem with that logic is that Shoota Boyz CAN indeed throw down the number of shots needed to put serious dents in MEQ squads. On top of that, if you're up against a bog standard MEQ army, where you want to be in assault to win the game, most of the times the targets that you charge will still lose to Shoota Boyz on the Charge just as they will lose to Slugga Boyz.

The problem with new Orks and assault is the fact that they are definitely beatable by a number of units, and Slugga Boyz don't offer very much more in CC than Shootas do - while at the same time Shootas can beat Sluggas in overall casualties inflicted if they're able to shoot before charging.

And this doesn't address the fact that if you come up against an army that can very much out assault you (Nids, Blood Angels, etc), then any Sluggas you take are likely wasted where the Shootas will be able to soften the targets up enough so the eventual Melee goes in the Ork players favor.

Likewise if there are armies where you can be out shot and need to be in CC ASAP (IG, Tau, etc), Shootas will probably do just as well as the Sluggas will running along and getting into CC.

Also given the new rules for CC mean that you can't consolidate-hop into new-assaults, and most CC's will end the turn you charge, means your 6+ Save Boyz who are probably out of KFF range because they charged are about to take a ton of retaliatory shooting.

You can say shootas can put the shots downfield to put a serious dent in marines, but it doesn’t make it true. Shootas don’t out perform a rapid firing guardsman. Two shots, BS 2 and Str 4, vs two shots, BS 3 and Str 3… it’s the same isn’t it? No-one is going to build an army around rapid firing guardsmen, so we have to abandon the idea of shoota boyz being pure shooting units and look at what they’re really all about.

We have to look instead at shoota boyz as a versatile unit, with solid shooting matched with solid assault. Claiming their shooting will put a serious dent in a marine horde is ignoring the math. A full unit of boyz, 180 points, is going to kill 3 1/3 marines, or around 50 points. That’s a reasonable return, no more.

The existence of units that out fight orks are not relevant, unless you’re suggesting there are lists where every single unit is capable of outfighting slugga boyz. So that leave the player to pick and choose his battles, using your assault troops to target the enemy’s weak units, while elsewhere he focuses ranged elements on the enemy’s quality assault troops. For this, a balance of units remains the best option… and taking only mobs of shoota boyz do not provide that versatility.

And yeah, you won’t be able to consolidate hop, but who said you had to? To hold objectives you have to drive off the enemy in their entirety, and that means you can’t rely on nickel and diming them with massed shootaz. At some point it means you have to assault with dedicated troops, and that’s where slugga boyz shine.

sebster wrote:
You can say shootas can put the shots downfield to put a serious dent in marines, but it doesn’t make it true. Shootas don’t out perform a rapid firing guardsman. Two shots, BS 2 and Str 4, vs two shots, BS 3 and Str 3… it’s the same isn’t it? No-one is going to build an army around rapid firing guardsmen, so we have to abandon the idea of shoota boyz being pure shooting units and look at what they’re really all about.

I never said they're "Pure Shooting Units", I said that they have the ability to put down a good number of shots down range. They most certainly CAN be a pure shooting unit, if I'm playing against a Stealer Shock style army or any army where 90% of my opponents force can out assault me by a substantial margin.

And if my Guardsmen could move and fire, while shooting twice per model at 18", while staying an assault threat, I'd base armies around them too.

We have to look instead at shoota boyz as a versatile unit, with solid shooting matched with solid assault. Claiming their shooting will put a serious dent in a marine horde is ignoring the math. A full unit of boyz, 180 points, is going to kill 3 1/3 marines, or around 50 points. That’s a reasonable return, no more.

When you take 3-4 Units of Shootas of that size, that's a good chunk of Marines dead; which reduces their ability to hurt you and increases your numerical superiority which helps as you continue to grind on them in a war of attrition. Shooting while on my way to assault. As opposed to Slugga Boyz who will have to Run, Run, Run till they can Waaagh and assault, not doing a whole lot to the Marines until they get there, and are open to being pre-emptively charged by assault units.

The existence of units that out fight orks are not relevant, unless you’re suggesting there are lists where every single unit is capable of outfighting slugga boyz. So that leave the player to pick and choose his battles, using your assault troops to target the enemy’s weak units, while elsewhere he focuses ranged elements on the enemy’s quality assault troops. For this, a balance of units remains the best option… and taking only mobs of shoota boyz do not provide that versatility.

The point isn't just that there are many units that out fight Orks. The point is that when it comes to using Orks in CC, there is a very thin margin of units that Slugga Boyz will beat in Combat that an equal costed unit of Shoota Boyz won't beat. Chances are, if I'm charging with any unit of Boyz, I'm probably going to be charging into a situation where either variety of Boyz will win that combat.

And yeah, you won’t be able to consolidate hop, but who said you had to? To hold objectives you have to drive off the enemy in their entirety, and that means you can’t rely on nickel and diming them with massed shootaz. At some point it means you have to assault with dedicated troops, and that’s where slugga boyz shine.

So my Boyz sit on the objective after assaulting an enemy unit and wiping it, and get shot. Now they're going to sit there and not influence my opponent since they have to "sit on the objective" but they can only do damage in assaults. If I need to camp on an objective, at least Shootas (who can also charge in and wipe units in assault) can still put out casualties on the enemy at range while the Sluggas get to sit there and hope they don't go below Fearless status and run.

sebster:

You can say shootas can put the shots downfield to put a serious dent in marines, but it doesn’t make it true. Shootas don’t out perform a rapid firing guardsman. Two shots, BS 2 and Str 4, vs two shots, BS 3 and Str 3… it’s the same isn’t it?

It is, and there's nothing wrong with it. (FYI, it also averages the same effect as Dire Avengers when they don't Bladestorm, point for -point [1 DA per 2 Shootas].) The problem is the 12" range and the fact that Guardsmen, unlike Shootas, suffer terrible hits to their effectiveness if they try to advance within 2-shot range.

VB is right, basically.

I agree with VB on all points.

I agree with VB too, Shootaz are still the way to go. I can see sticking Sluggaz in a trukk, but that's about it.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I never said they're "Pure Shooting Units", I said that they have the ability to put down a good number of shots down range. They most certainly CAN be a pure shooting unit, if I'm playing against a Stealer Shock style army or any army where 90% of my opponents force can out assault me by a substantial margin.

And if my Guardsmen could move and fire, while shooting twice per model at 18", while staying an assault threat, I'd base armies around them too.

My point is exactly that, shoota boyz aren’t pure shooting units. They’re a generalist unit and have to be seen as such. Much of the commentary on shootas looks at the number of shots they can put out at 18” and forgets that most will miss and that 18” will often see you charged next turn anyway.

And remember, against a tyranid list if you want to get within 18” to fire you’re exposing yourself to assault the next turn. If you deploy carefully and can judge range brilliantly it can theoretically only be a 1/6 chance, but more likely you’ll be exposed to a 50-50 chance of being charged.

When you take 3-4 Units of Shootas of that size, that's a good chunk of Marines dead; which reduces their ability to hurt you and increases your numerical superiority which helps as you continue to grind on them in a war of attrition. Shooting while on my way to assault. As opposed to Slugga Boyz who will have to Run, Run, Run till they can Waaagh and assault, not doing a whole lot to the Marines until they get there, and are open to being pre-emptively charged by assault units.

You’re arguing for putting 90 to 120 models into an area to wipe out a tactical squad. That just doesn’t match with reality. Large units like that aren’t capable of focussing their numbers in the manner you suggest.

The point isn't just that there are many units that out fight Orks. The point is that when it comes to using Orks in CC, there is a very thin margin of units that Slugga Boyz will beat in Combat that an equal costed unit of Shoota Boyz won't beat. Chances are, if I'm charging with any unit of Boyz, I'm probably going to be charging into a situation where either variety of Boyz will win that combat.

But it isn’t an absolute thing… the game is based on dice and that means your assumption of will win/won’t win needs to be replaced by a probability of winning, and a further consideration for how many troops you’ll have left afterwards.

And the increased melee ability of slugga boyz means you have a significantly increased chance of beating quality melee units, and a significantly increased chance of inflicting decisive victories over middling enemy units.

So my Boyz sit on the objective after assaulting an enemy unit and wiping it, and get shot. Now they're going to sit there and not influence my opponent since they have to "sit on the objective" but they can only do damage in assaults. If I need to camp on an objective, at least Shootas (who can also charge in and wipe units in assault) can still put out casualties on the enemy at range while the Sluggas get to sit there and hope they don't go below Fearless status and run.

No, the slugga boyz move on to new targets. They’re cheap shock troops and will have paid for themselves with their first assault, but any further effect is nice.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:It is, and there's nothing wrong with it. (FYI, it also averages the same effect as Dire Avengers when they don't Bladestorm, point for -point [1 DA per 2 Shootas].) The problem is the 12" range and the fact that Guardsmen, unlike Shootas, suffer terrible hits to their effectiveness if they try to advance within 2-shot range.

VB is right, basically.

The shooting from shoota boyz, along with their mobility while firing and the ability in assault, is part of what makes them good. Shooting in itself is not that effective, you need to see the unit as skilled generalists.

DA are also more effective because they can bladestorm, and because they pack more killing on a model for model basis, which means you can fit more firepower into a limited area of the board. When you're limited to a range where the survivors of your target are likely to charge you, you really need to be able to get enough models in there to wipe the target out. It's near impossible to fit that many boyz into range, but a lot easier to do with DAs.

How is 18" "a range where the survivors of your target are likely to charge you"?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:How is 18" "a range where the survivors of your target are likely to charge you"?

Because Nids always roll 5's and 6's for Fleet rolls!

sebster wrote:
My point is exactly that, shoota boyz aren’t pure shooting units. They’re a generalist unit and have to be seen as such. Much of the commentary on shootas looks at the number of shots they can put out at 18” and forgets that most will miss and that 18” will often see you charged next turn anyway.

And my point is that Shoota Boyz are a shooting unit that has only marginally less CC potential than Slugga Boyz. In fact the difference in potential once in combat is small enough that I don't see the point in using Slugga Boyz when Shootas give you the same options.

You’re arguing for putting 90 to 120 models into an area to wipe out a tactical squad. That just doesn’t match with reality. Large units like that aren’t capable of focussing their numbers in the manner you suggest.

You can apply a large amount of shooting into single squads, but even doing this damage across a wide frontage, you're killing more of them than they are of you in terms of total effectiveness. Ie. If I kill 2-3 Marines, and they kill 4-5 Orks, they're losing that battle of attrition.

But it isn’t an absolute thing… the game is based on dice and that means your assumption of will win/won’t win needs to be replaced by a probability of winning, and a further consideration for how many troops you’ll have left afterwards.

And the increased melee ability of slugga boyz means you have a significantly increased chance of beating quality melee units, and a significantly increased chance of inflicting decisive victories over middling enemy units.

It's an analysis thing. Sluggas get an extra attack in CC over Shootas. When charged, they get more S3 attacks, and the Power Klaw difference maker is the same between both units.

Yes, the Sluggas are better in assault, but you're not factoring in the ability of Shootas to almost always get shots off on dangerous assault targets that are moving up on them. With very limited amounts of Blocking LOS terrain in 5th Ed, I get lots and lots of shots off on you. And I don't care about your 4+ Cover save because my Guns are only AP6 anyway.

Plus if you see big assault threats coming, Sluggas get to sit there, and ONCE PER GAME, they can Waagh to have a charge range over 12". Shootas can move backwards and keep firing if necessary.

No, the slugga boyz move on to new targets. They’re cheap shock troops and will have paid for themselves with their first assault, but any further effect is nice.

I don't care about units "Paying for themselves" anymore with 5th Edition. I care about scoring objectives or killing more "units" of my opponent than he does of me. In objective games, the Sluggas have to sit on the objective to win; Shootas can do that while still hurting the enemy.

Steelmage, your mathhammer is excellent. That being said, I don't think the results are valid. You're assuming one turn of shooting. If that is all an Ork player can manage to get off with shootas, then they absolutely should use slugga boys. If you consider even one more round of shooting out of the shoota boyz, which I think is very conservative, the advantage becomes much more apparent.

There are some good points in this thread, but the answer boils down to "it's situational." I think that you can go either way and not feel like you have made an idiot of yourself, especially if you mix it up.

Ever since the first threads started popping up saying,"sluggas will RULE in 5th edition because of run" I couldn't help but think to myself that it was wrong.

What wins with in 40K? Mobility and versatility. With Assualt2 guns now rather then rapid fire, shootas have both. 5th edition rules on LOS means they got better becuase they can shoot more. I rarely have to use the waaagh rule in my games - more often then not, I'd rather shoot with the shootas while the rest of the army does their thing.

My last 8 tournament games I've won with this idea - by wide margins. And that's with rather restricted lanes of fire. they only get better in 5th.

ok, I'm convinced - walking shoota boyz and trukking slugga boyz ftw

tegeus-Cromis wrote:How is 18" "a range where the survivors of your target are likely to charge you"?

That's a pretty crappy misquote.

18" isn't a range where you're likely to get charged, which your quote implies I said. I said that with an 18" range it's likely that after firing you'll be exposed to being charged.

The only way the two things are equal is if you assume that you'll be able to always to maneouvre to fire at your optimum range. You have to assume you can asses 18" without overshooting it and deploying up to 16" or so. It assumes your opponent is incompetent enough to allow you freedom to deploy slow moving units at their optimum firing range without any pressure from other units. It assumes no other situational features, such as the location of objectives, terrain, board edges, and the location of friendly and enemy units.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:And my point is that Shoota Boyz are a shooting unit that has only marginally less CC potential than Slugga Boyz. In fact the difference in potential once in combat is small enough that I don't see the point in using Slugga Boyz when Shootas give you the same options.

The difference is significant, when you look at winning or losing a melee by a casualty or two. Remember that while it looks great to add up all those casualties inflicted in shooting before you assault, you don't get to count them as part of the casualty totals. And the ability of orks to waagh means you won't be shooting a lot of the time anyway, in order to reach in the first place.

You can apply a large amount of shooting into single squads, but even doing this damage across a wide frontage, you're killing more of them than they are of you in terms of total effectiveness. Ie. If I kill 2-3 Marines, and they kill 4-5 Orks, they're losing that battle of attrition.

Your point was about wiping out a whole unit. Doing it across a wide frontage means resorting to a battle of attrition, at which point the orks are only capable of winning against basic tactical marines at their optimum range. Any other range and the marines are winning. And the marines are capable of focussing their forces.

It's an analysis thing. Sluggas get an extra attack in CC over Shootas. When charged, they get more S3 attacks, and the Power Klaw difference maker is the same between both units.

Of course its an analysis thing. This is analysis we're discussing.

Yes, the Sluggas are better in assault, but you're not factoring in the ability of Shootas to almost always get shots off on dangerous assault targets that are moving up on them. With very limited amounts of Blocking LOS terrain in 5th Ed, I get lots and lots of shots off on you. And I don't care about your 4+ Cover save because my Guns are only AP6 anyway.

Plus if you see big assault threats coming, Sluggas get to sit there, and ONCE PER GAME, they can Waagh to have a charge range over 12". Shootas can move backwards and keep firing if necessary.

I am factoring it in. You seem to be inventing some argument that I think slugga are absolutely better. I'm not, and haven't ever, said that. I think there are distinct advantages to each unit, players should be aware of each set of advantages, and that there is a place for each in successful lists.

Shootas a versatile unit capable of fire support and assault. Sluggas are a dedicated assault unit. Where decent firepower isn't sufficient to get rid of an important target, sluggas are the better option.

I don't care about units "Paying for themselves" anymore with 5th Edition. I care about scoring objectives or killing more "units" of my opponent than he does of me. In objective games, the Sluggas have to sit on the objective to win; Shootas can do that while still hurting the enemy.

That bit is my fault. I used the term 'paid for themselves' to mean 'justified the points spent'. I was never interested in the 'killed their points worth side of mathhammer'. I mean that if a unit of sluggas has assaulted an enemy unit on an objective and defeated them, I'm not that concerned about additional assaults, the unit has already played an important part.

If you were to run four big foot slogging mobz, would taking two with sluggas and two with shootas be a viable compromise?

So where do Weirdboyz figure into this? They can trigger the Waaagh!, teleport boyz, and enhance them in assaults. Wouldn't Slugga Boyz gain some advantage when deployment in concert with Ork Psyckers?

Another thing to consider is wound allocation. With a full mob of shootas, it's not hard to see ~8 wounds laid on a squad of MEQs. Add in a Rokkit wound, and that powerfist could be taking an armor save on it's own. Having a good chance to knock out the big swinger from a squad is a huge advantage.

Also, you can always tell which option is weaker by seeing what GW puts in the starter box. 5th edition has sluggas, so they're clearly the weaker choice....

One thing to consider is also the desired effect of dealing less wounds in CC and in exchange dealing shooting wounds before the charge.

What the hell is he on about, you think.

I believe the trick in 5th edition is to lose the first round of CC by a small margin. This can be done by a bit of on the fly mathhammer (as Orks almost allways hit last) as we get to see how many casualties are inflicted on us before we remove said casualties. This we do in order to get a second round of CC instead of being rapid fired to Gork and back. The wounds dealt in the shooting phase doesn't count towards the CC resolution (naturally), thus allowing us to thin out the opposition without having to win by a large margin.

This is ofcause limited by the opponents ability to remove shooting casualties and denying the charge, and the rumoured SM Combat Tactics. All in all, it is situational.