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Hello, I've worked out a basic first draft of my army list that I've started to build anew after a hiatus from the hobby. What I want to know is based around one slot, should I take 3 buggies or 3 deffcoptas? Which will survive better, and is generally more complimentary to the list? With this in mind here is said list (1500pts):

Warboss: Mega armour, Attack squig, Cybork body
9 Ard Boyz w/Sluggas
Ard Boy Nob: Power Claw, Bosspole
Trukk: Red Paint, Reinforced ram

11 Slugga Boyz:
Nob: Power Klaw, Bosspole
Trukk: Red Paint, Rokkit

11 Slugga Boyz:
Nob: Power Klaw, Bosspole
Trukk: Red Paint, Rokkit

4 Warbikes:
Nob: Power Claw, Bosspole

11 Stormboyz:
Nob: Power Klaw, Bosspole

Looted wagon: Boomcannon

19 Shoota Boyz
Nob: Power Klaw, Bosspole
Battlewagon: Armour Plates, Big shoota, Red Paint, Deffrolla

+ to complete the list, either 3 deffcoptas with rokkit launchas, or 3 buggies with rokkits.

I have 137 points to spend on this unit, the deffcoptas come to 135, and the buggies are only 105, leaving me some points for vehicle upgrades/other unit boosts (more stormboyz?). I could potentialy change the weapons, I was thinking about skorcha buggies. So, in your experience (and in relation to this list), which is better, buggies or coptas (I know it's a matter of context, but in general)?

Ps. I put this in this forum because I'm not after army list critique, rather advice pertaining to the relevant benefits of buggies and koptas.

I think Koptas are rubbish. 1. With a buzzsaw. Maybe.

Buggies are awesome little harassing units. I don't give them rokkits as they die to everything at 24". Big shootas all the way.

Buggies, hands down. Koptas are overpriced for less survivability... and that's before upgrade for rokkits. The 'saw is cool... except the unit will generally die before it swings. Stick with buggies, they'll do you better every time.

buggies with big shoota are indeed great mobile long distance anti-infantry units, but you are rather lacking in anti-vehicle shooting. TL-rokkit koptas would help with that, BUT are best treated as sacrifice units as they usually die pretty quickly.

Some people would say to use big shoota buggies instead of bikers, and then add TL-rokkit koptas. But I do love the biker models...

Scouting coptas when you have the 1st turn is pretty nice for anti tank. Buggies arent really that much better but at least they are cheap.

With a scouting move the koptas can find themselves assaulting a tank or small unit immediately if the enemy is foolish enough to place them farther forward than they ought to be. Saw somebody jump a group into a devistator squad the other day, it wasn't pretty. But if the enemy knows what he is doing, than you won't get that chance, and at most you can tie up an assault unit for a turn. So for general purpose light unit, buggies are the way to go.

As Clang suggested, the bikers may not be the best idea. Bikers are not that robust or points-effective.

Koptas are superior. I can think of no situations where I would take buggies over them.

Ah that's too bad. Koptas are amusing and easily killed off.

I agree with Mauleed, koptas are the better buy.

Buggies aren't that much more survivable, really - maybe even less survivable. Being open-topped hurts, and even if they don't die, they may end up pretty useless if shaken/stunned.

But, the real strength of the kopta is in versatility. A buggy does one thing - zips around and shoots. A kopta does that too, with the same weapons and ranges. Koptas have the scout move to get into position. The kopta can fly, and turbo-boost, so it moves faster when not shooting. The kopta can also engage in CC. With T4(5), they can survive pretty well against shooty units that don't have a powerfist, and with a buzzsaw of their own, can actually win fights.

Nothing wrong with tying up a unit of Firewarriors for a few turns.

Tactical flexibility is the key. Koptas do everything buggies do, and more.

Big shoota + fast > kopta with dubious CC attacks.

Koptas cannot hide (everyone can see that model).

I expect to see scouting + turboboosting nerf in the 5E FAQ.

Why do you need to get into position with a 36" range gun? Right, you're talking about assaulting with a unit you paid to get shooting with...then paid alot for a crappy CC attack.

Win fights, are you serious? Against Tau, yes. You must be dreaming against everyone else, or are you going to bring 5 koptas with 1 buzzsaw?

In the one mission where scouting might help, the rule for the mission overrides the ability to deploy. (This was a good decision by GW, btw.)

So 200 points for half the shooting of two buggy units, laughable hit + run, upcoming nerf (as listed above), scout utility degraded, and for 200 points you can have 30 boyz but this unit is better.

Toss in the reality of counterattack, how close combats really work, how you cannot consolidate...and you have a seriously subpar unit.

If you want to spend the points, I'm all for it.

Now do single Koptas have their place? Yes. Do I think they're anything other than suicide units? No. Which isn't my playstyle, but if you want to go right ahead.

For a shooty Ork army, buggies are best in the FA category. For a non-shooty Ork army, I guess I'll have to see the use of koptas to believe they've got more than suicide unit in 'em.

Interesting stuff. I've posted my revised list in the appropriate forum after taking on board the advice given here.

Stelek wrote:Big shoota + fast > kopta with dubious CC attacks.

Ok, so your buggy has a TL-big shoota, and moves up to 12" shooting, 18" not shooting.
My kopta has a TL-Big Shoota, moves up to 12" shooting, 24" not shooting.

Faster + Big Shoota = Win.

Koptas cannot hide (everyone can see that model).

I expect to see scouting + turboboosting nerf in the 5E FAQ.

Buggies are as hidable/unhidable as koptas. Under the old KoS list, where I could run buggies as troops, the buggies were no more or less hidable than the koptas.

As for scouting/turbo-boosting, yes, you cannot turbo-boost with your scout move. That means that the kopta only has a 12" great deployment range than the buggy, not a 24" greater range.

Why do you need to get into position with a 36" range gun? Right, you're talking about assaulting with a unit you paid to get shooting with...then paid alot for a crappy CC attack.

Because I value tactical flexibility. It's all well and good to say "this is a shooting unit". In 90% of the games it might hang back at 36" and do nothing but fire its gun. But, it's that 10% of games where you say, hey, the terrain here would allow my kopta to tie up that squad of HB-Devs for a couple of turns, letting the boys avoid a lot of fire that separate the two. In this case, the buggy just sits there and does what it does, and the kopta's added flexibility pays off.

Win fights, are you serious? Against Tau, yes. You must be dreaming against everyone else, or are you going to bring 5 koptas with 1 buzzsaw?

It doesn't necessarily take a lot to win a fight. Sometimes, not taking a wound is as good as dealing a wound. I'll gladly spend 35 points for a model that will prevent my opponent firing his 4 heavy bolters for a turn, and if I get two turns of tie-up out of it, even better.

Consider running a kopta into a 10-man marine force without a powerfist. Even in 5th ed where they all pile-into the combat, you're taking 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound - you didn't die, cause you have two wounds. If you've got the buzzsaw, you're getting 3 attacks when you charge, and probably causing a wound as well. Tied combat, and those devastators are tied up.

There are plenty of units in the game that you benefit from tying up like this. 5 destroyers can put a big hurting on your normal boyz, but they'll take a few turns to kill off a kopta.

Ok, so you don't like suicide units - that's fair. I don't like tactically unflexible units that do too little in too many situations.

Honestly, does the firepower of a buggy scare anyone?
The coptas might not be a very good unit either but it seems at little better esp. with saw.

Redbeard has the right of it, and his explanation is clear and easy to understand.

Hmmm a few flaws in your argument.

Faster + Big shoota = pointless in a game with armor arcs like 40k has.

Buggies aren't as tall or as wide at the top as koptas are, actually. Koptas are impossible to hide behind ANYTHING but walls--and tall wide ones at that.

I'm pretty impressed with your ability to get a single kopta into close combat in 5th. You went first, your opponent knew you scout, saw where you were, and setup his devs within 18" of that spot anyway?

I guess all of your arguments for a lone kopta to do what you say it can seem pretty specious to me.

I laugh at Koptas because they're so easy to pick off. Failed your cover save? Ok, your dead.

Who said anything about close combat? What happens when you hit a power fist? Hope he rolls a 1 on his to wound? Maybe it isn't the way your locals run marines, but out here in the new marine books alot of people are running vet sarges with powerfists.

Can't min/max anymore, so might as well take complete units that can take care of themselves--and that means when a suicide unit rolls up, the dev sarge with a pfist takes them out.

Kinda like Lictors without a turn 2 assault swarm backing them. They die. They suck horribly. Claiming otherwise defies rational thought.

Maybe you have uber units that just crush and maim all by their lonesome, but I don't believe it for a minute.

Sorry.

Edit:

Mauleed, if you would like to refute Stelek's argument, feel free to do so by presenting your own facts.

Otherwise, please refrain from posting personal attacks. Remember, you can always use the 'ignore' function if someone bothers you.

--yakface

Stelek.

Earlier you said "Big Shoota + Fast" was better. Now "Faster + Big Shoota" is bad?

Kopta and Buggies are about the same size.

You assume no terrain blocks line of sight. All the places I play are building new LOS blocking terrain. I don't waste time with tournaments, so that isn't a problem.

Apparently you are the only one thinking of assaulting PF armed squads. We don't. If you play with people that arm even Devastators with PF, ok.

The Lictor comparison is both flawed and waste of time. Nobody advocates throwing the Kopta into assault as soon as possible. We talk about the flexibility of having the option of assault, something the Buggy doesn't have.

The ability to ignore terrain also makes the Kopta a tiny bit better than the Buggy when it comes to contesting objectives.

Stelek:

You clearly don't understand the concept of flexibility. Being flexible means that when you see an opposing unit that can whoop you in assault, you don't assault it. You don't use one overriding approach to a unit regardless of what you might be facing.

Maybe where you are everyone takes a PF Sgt with their devs. Does that mean that there is never anything of any value to assault with a cheap, throwaway model who, with a little luck, can punch way above his value?

I supose it's this one-size-fits-all mentality that leads you to like buggies. You're right, if all you plan to do with a unit is sit at 36" and fire, then buggies, simply by virtue of their cost, are better than koptas. You're saving 5 points/model.

However, for those of us who like to keep our options open during the game, spending the extra five points for the ability to be allowed to assault in the ever-so-rare cases where we might play against someone who left something shooty in a place where it can be reached isn't exactly breaking the bank.


Koptas can get lucky. Buggies cannot. I played in one tournament against a guard player. My kopta was able to make it into assault with a unit of lascannoners stationed in a building. Stuck in on my turn, swept them on his, moved on to a unit of ratlings - same story, stuck in on my turn, won combat on his. Following this, was able to get behind a Demolisher, destroyed it with an assault to the rear armour, and followed that up by turbo-boosting to control the center objective on the last turn.

Is this expected? No. But if he'd only have killed the lascannons, he would still have killed more than twice his cost in guard. You don't plan for these situations, but they can happen - if you bring the right tools. A buggy could not have done this - period. You can only get as lucky as you set yourself up to be.

Steelmage99 wrote:Earlier you said "Big Shoota + Fast" was better. Now "Faster + Big Shoota" is bad?

No, I'm saying 'faster + big shoota' is meaningless. You can move 12" and fire 36" with both units.

I.E. It's a red herring argument. Did you fall for it? I'm sorry.

Steelmage99 wrote:Kopta and Buggies are about the same size.

They are? Really? No, not really.

Koptas are tall AND wide, and mounted on flying bases.

Buggies are low, and not mounted on bases.

I swear I need a pop up book, tired of posting pictures of the obvious.

Steelmage99 wrote:You assume no terrain blocks line of sight. All the places I play are building new LOS blocking terrain. I don't waste time with tournaments, so that isn't a problem.

Excellent, you will have all 1 block cities.

I of course did not assume anything. Only cities block line of sight.

Are you building wall-hills? Those look like but I suppose if you can't play with the new 5E rules this is a way out.

Steelmage99 wrote:Apparently you are the only one thinking of assaulting PF armed squads. We don't. If you play with people that arm even Devastators with PF, ok.

Uhh no, I said 'how do you survive getting across the board'.

Your reply is 'only fools take PF armed devs'. True in 4th. Not true in 5th.

Oh, and you'll be using hills a foot high so you can keep using the same tactics you've "honed" in 4th into 5th?

Good thing you don't play in tournaments, where that won't be the case.

Steelmage99 wrote:The Lictor comparison is both flawed and waste of time. Nobody advocates throwing the Kopta into assault as soon as possible. We talk about the flexibility of having the option of assault, something the Buggy doesn't have.

Sure, I talk about the flexibility of surviving and you talk about the flexibility of assaulting.

Let's try and be realistic. You play with people that have armies that are vulnerable to one kopta assaulting them, and on terrain tailored to your preferred play style.

Neither of which is realistic.

Steelmage99 wrote:The ability to ignore terrain also makes the Kopta a tiny bit better than the Buggy when it comes to contesting objectives.

Really, it does? What happens when the objective is surrounded by the enemy, and you can't get within 3"? Gonna assault that tactical squad with the PF in it, are ya? Or...are those devs that have walked into midfield that you're going to own?

I see alot of "Stelek says this, so I must take the opposite tact". I don't actually see anything tactically sound or realistic.

Bring Koptas. Nobody cares how bad you lose with subpar units when facing experienced opponents or how badly you crush noobs with the same units.

Subpar is subpar. Heavy weapons and close combat resolution have koptas number.

You think differently, fine. The sky is purple too.

Yeah redbeard, I don't understand flexibility.

That's why I run 180 man ork armies.

Oh wait...

Stelek wrote:Yeah redbeard, I don't understand flexibility.

That's why I run 180 man ork armies.

The 30-boy shoota-boy unit w/ PK Nob and 3 rokkits is one of the most flexible units in the game. It has enough attacks to assault things that outshoot it, it can shoot things that will beat it in assault. It carries as good anti-tank as any viable unit in the ork codex, and has a beatstick PK nob hiding behind a whole lot of wounds to boot. How exactly are these not flexible? Sometimes I find it hard to believe you're playing the same game as everyone else here.

Ok guys, I think we can close this now. My question has been answered both for and against, and seeing as my deffcoptas are going to be made out of plasticard and the buggies out of parts I already have available, I'm going to build one Deffcopta with buzzsaw and 2 buggies with big shootas and see which works best. It's been useful, thanks.

END OF THREAD.

Stelek wrote:

No, I'm saying 'faster + big shoota' is meaningless. You can move 12" and fire 36" with both units.

I get what you mean. Our speed is allready maxed out therefore "faster" is meaningless.

Stelek wrote:

*comparing Buggy and Dethkopta*

That is the old wide Dethkopta and you assume I mount it on the tallest base. I don't.

Stelek wrote:
Excellent, you will have all 1 block cities.

I of course did not assume anything. Only cities block line of sight.

Are you building wall-hills? Those look like but I suppose if you can't play with the new 5E rules this is a way out.

And hills and walls and anything that really does block LOS. And no need for insults.

Stelek wrote:

Uhh no, I said 'how do you survive getting across the board'.

Using the terrain and/or models, LOS blocking or not.

Stelek wrote:

Your reply is 'only fools take PF armed devs'. True in 4th. Not true in 5th.

I didn't call anybody fools. That is your personality showing, not mine.
And naturally I play against other armies than Marines, too.

Stelek wrote:

Oh, and you'll be using hills a foot high so you can keep using the same tactics you've "honed" in 4th into 5th?

Good thing you don't play in tournaments, where that won't be the case.

Comon Stelek. A hill doesn't have to be a foot high to hide a Kopta. And again, no need for insults.

Stelek wrote:

Sure, I talk about the flexibility of surviving and you talk about the flexibility of assaulting.

Let's try and be realistic. You play with people that have armies that are vulnerable to one kopta assaulting them, and on terrain tailored to your preferred play style.

Neither of which is realistic.

We are not talking about assaulting entire armies. Vulnerable units, yes. Who is vulnerable? That is highly situational.

Stelek wrote:

Really, it does? What happens when the objective is surrounded by the enemy, and you can't get within 3"? Gonna assault that tactical squad with the PF in it, are ya? Or...are those devs that have walked into midfield that you're going to own?

In that scenario the Buggy is equally screwed. I mentioned that the ability to ignore terrain made it a tiny bit better. That's all.

Stelek wrote:

I see alot of "Stelek says this, so I must take the opposite tact". I don't actually see anything tactically sound or realistic.

Your paranoia is showing.

Stelek wrote:

Bring Koptas. Nobody cares how bad you lose with subpar units when facing experienced opponents or how badly you crush noobs with the same units.

Subpar is subpar. Heavy weapons and close combat resolution have koptas number.

You think differently, fine. The sky is purple too.

Heavy weapons and close combat resolution have everybodys number. We are allowed tobe tactical in our usage of the Kopta. And whats with all the insults?

Steelmage, I have been on Dakka for barely a month and I already see Stelek as an elitist with that "I have the brain here, you however, don't" attitude and is also willing to start an argument whenever he sees the chance to. This is why a lot of people don't waste their time with him.

Follow suit if you wish, Steelmage, it will make your time on Dakka just a little better.

Sorry, but someone had to finally say this.

Can we all stop this now? I don't care who's Billy Big Balls around here, and this is another example of the same sort of argument I see a lot on Dakka, it's a bit unnecesary. My question has been answered helpfully, and there has also been a lot of useless arguing. If a mod reads this could you kindly lock this thread, as apparently my request to end it has fallen on deaf ears. Cheers.