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So I've been thinking about things, trying to figure out how to make a more viable army without losing the theme I liked.

I realize it's vulnerable to magic, but I think anyone with Cairn Wraiths is going to take it in the from magic. lol

At least I hope with the 4 Black Knight units I'd have a better showing.

So how's this look?

2000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster

9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast @ [16] Pts

9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast @ [16] Pts

9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast @ [16] Pts

1 Vampire (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 185 Pts
Hand Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer; Undead
1 Spectral Form @ [50] Pts
1 Banner of Hellfire @ [10] Pts

1 Vampire @ 150 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Spectral Form @ [50] Pts

7 Cairn Wraiths @ 425 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead
1 Tomb Banshee @ [75] Pts
Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead

7 Cairn Wraiths @ 425 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead
1 Tomb Banshee @ [75] Pts
Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead

5 Black Knights @ 136 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
5 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Black Knights @ 136 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
5 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Black Knights @ 136 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
5 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Black Knights @ 136 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Undead
5 Skeletal Steed @ [0] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1993

Unfortunately much of what make Black Knights so good is the fact that they can be Dansed into anyone from any direction. With only two casters I'd be quite surprised if you really got off the spells you need. This is compounded by the fact that you only have 2 vampires. Tough to keep that march bonus on your whole army.

Also, I'm not sure, but I thought spectral form made it impossible to take any magic items. Making the banner on your bsb illegal.

In general this list suffers in much the same capacity as your previous designs. While the hitting power has improved its still quite frail and lacking in maneuverability.

You've said before that you want to play Warhamme rlike its 40k. Well if thats what you want to do you won't have much success. Warhammer is not, and will never be, 40k. If you want to turn out fun, competetive lists for people to play against then you need to start with that assumption.

Not sure about the BSB thing, I believe the BSB rule says you can take a magic banner and cannot take any other magic items but may take vampiric powers. Which then says you can't take magic items. *shrug* Not like it's a huge deal either way...

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Anyway I don't want to run any kind of standard VC list or use the tactics thereof.

I'm not sure how it's frail and lacking in maneuverability.

Black Knights flank the skirmishers, or are behind them...whatever, you know what I mean...Skirmishers can stretch out and get assaults in lots of places, and the Black Knights have a 16" can't stop it/can't slow it charge. How's that bad? Without magic the skirmishers don't die, and the Black Knights can take most magic without disintegrating.

Btw, since I don't find 'blockhammer' to be any fun, and herohammer only slightly more than zero...if I bring a list like this and lose, but I had fun doing it...didn't I make the other person happy by losing for a change?

It's not like the local fantasy players are the uber or anything...

Even without playing blockhammer or herohammer, I think it has a chance--better than the other versions, anyway, and still keeps to my theme.

Anyhoo I'm just saying if you think I don't realize that a thousand points spent in two so-so units isn't a bad thing...come on. I know! lol

Stelek wrote:

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Stelek wrote:
Anyway I don't want to run any kind of standard VC list or use the tactics thereof.

I'm not sure how it's frail and lacking in maneuverability.

Black Knights flank the skirmishers, or are behind them...whatever, you know what I mean...Skirmishers can stretch out and get assaults in lots of places, and the Black Knights have a 16" can't stop it/can't slow it charge. How's that bad? Without magic the skirmishers don't die, and the Black Knights can take most magic without disintegrating.

Your skirmishers rely on being immune to magic which your weak magic defense can't stop. Your knights 16" charge relies on magic, which any average magic phase will easily stop. You don't have the kind PD necesarry to gurantee a danse, or the DD required to protect your 1k point investment. Invocation is similarly problematic. This kills your maneuverability and survivability. If you actually manage to run into a list with less magic than what you have (unlikely at 2k) you'll probably win by virtue of invulnerable Wraiths. If not you'll be cut to pieces. Either way the game is decided before the pieces are even put down. Boring. Pointless.

Stelek wrote:
Btw, since I don't find 'blockhammer' to be any fun, and herohammer only slightly more than zero...if I bring a list like this and lose, but I had fun doing it...didn't I make the other person happy by losing for a change?

It's not like the local fantasy players are the uber or anything...

This is quite possibly the single most obtuse point ever raised on a dakka board...ever.

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So how's this look?

I could tell you what it looks like, but then I'm afraid that you'll just say it's for fun games and against noskill players with crap armies. So, untill you tell us what you really want us to say, I'll just say the list is really hard to read when you copy paste it straight from army builder.

Hmm I never said it was for anything but...

Oh right, dakka is only for "serious" lists.

And people wonder why no one posts in this forum.

I'm not sure how it's hard to read but I've been using AB so long I read it like a second language. I can read the XML too lol.

Stelek wrote:
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Stelek wrote:My knights 16" charge relies on magic? It does? Gasp--I'm talking to a wall again. I clearly say I am not using a typical VC army nor the most obvious 'a 2 year can figga it out' tactics and you tell me I should use the typical VC army and it's tactics.

Wait for it...wait...I move 16" turn 1, then charge turn 2.

Really? You move all your knights 16"? Even the ones outside the command radius of the vampires? With those wonderful Danses that you'll never get off? You do know that undead can't normally march right?

Stelek wrote:
I don't know how good you are at fantasy, but most games are decided after the pieces are put down, not before.

Hence my point that the list you've provided is gak.

Stelek wrote:
I'm pretty good, and I'm excellent in 40k...but I don't see how it's boring or pointless...man, I'm starting to yearn for obtuse.

That means it's time to stop talking...

I really don't care how good you are. That fact is irrelevant by way of being without proof. The point is you made a bad list. You didn't play to he army's strengths. In fact you deliberately went against them, and the core mechanics of the game. Any list which does this will be both boring and pointless.

Vampires have command radius of 6".

So with 2 Vampires, that's 24" covered.

Am I being dense, or are you?

I think you are, for whatever reason.

Im sorry but this list dosnt fit into being serious or fun, its just plan awful, i mean if its just for fun then clearly taking 4 units of black knights, 2 units of wraith and minimal core is not what you do for a freindly game, like another list i noticed its very much a all or nothing type thing. Still as you have so little magic i can see it being all that great against many armies which would shut down your magic phase.

Your list has no real synergy, seriously, its like all your going to do is just run forward and hope for the best, if thats what you want to then i wouldnt suggest VC as the army for you, maybe try orcs

Stelek wrote:Vampires have command radius of 6".

So with 2 Vampires, that's 24" covered.

Am I being dense, or are you?

I think you are, for whatever reason.

Yes, I realize that they cover 24". I also realize that 24" is unlikely to be enough range if you intend to use the knights intelligently and get them flank charges.

You're trying to talk around my point, rather than addressing it. Its really quite O'Reilly of you. Unfortunately it also plays roughly as well.

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So your right again ? ?

You only have two Vamps ?

You have way to small black knight units that would get shot to hell. And defeated in combat.

Then if playing a good enemy they will slaughter you weak units and maybe Kill off your vamps.

Do you have the ability (magic) give them your vamp's. WS ? I didnt see it ? You need that

Why you going toward Ghouls there not that amazing. (Orges they are)

Bad Army list work on it.


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Why do you follow me around? Worse than a kid at the store.

How is my list sucks advice? I know it sucks. Ever think those uber armies that everyone plays are boring, and have been boring for a decade? It's not like they change anything in fantasy, and I'm tired of having durrhammer armies. I'd rather take models I like, use tactics I come up with, and see if I can win anyway.

It's apparently too difficult a concept for the alpha dogs to grasp--yes really, I'll play with a subpar list and find a way to beat you with your cookie cutter fantasy list that's been around for ten years.

Capiche?

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Advice being delivered via slap-to-the-face when not asked for isn't appreciated by anyone.

I can change, so can others.

problem with your list is that its going to suck against a experience player but will do well against noob, simple as, to me, it just looks like your trying to do some sort of wierd of chaos army with VC Honestly mate, get over yourself, if your going to post pretty stupid lists then dont expect everyone to tell you how great you are at list creation.

Stelek wrote:Wait let me see if I've got it straight.

I'm just a big old dummy who runs his army straight at the enemy?

LOL.

Your pathetic bland attempt to insult me out of the way...

I addressed your point. I can cover my black knights with 2 vampires.

Guess you were wrong.

Again.

Either nuance escapes or you are simply using litteral reading so as to conceal your own fallacy. My point was that you will not be able to keep your BK under vamp coverage for long enough to make them useful. You did not address this point, you talked around it.

Also, don't try and tell me that literal reading is the only way to interpret forum posts. If that were the case then this...
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The vampires go 12". The BK go 16". I charge turn 2.


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itsonlyme wrote:problem with your list is that its going to suck against a experience player but will do well against noob, simple as, to me, it just looks like your trying to do some sort of wierd of chaos army with VC Honestly mate, get over yourself, if your going to post pretty stupid lists then dont expect everyone to tell you how great you are at list creation.

Sorry, when did I ask anyone to tell me it was great?

I asked if it was better than the last version.

Apparently, it won't be any good until it's the cookie cutter VC list every idiot is running at the Indy's.

Oops, wait...I forgot I'm a skillless newb twit who doesn't know anything about fantasy.

Durr.

(Note, the sarcasm was not directed at you.)

obviously you dont know a thing about fantasy, why dont you lose the attitude for a start hey so you havent used the normal vampire list, good for you, so rather than go for the magic heavy version you go for a rather lame attempt at CC army, its nothing special, you dont want advice or cant handle peoples comments, dont post the list.

At the end of the day Vampires need a general that isnt going to die in a round of combat or its game over, even if you use a vampire lord and you dont want to use the same cookie cutter, i know, its a crazy idea, i know, but perhaps, just maybe you could oh i dont know, try and different combo! My god, is that a idea or what

I tell you what mate, when you have some started to grow purbic hair then come back

The vampires go 12". The BK go 16". I charge turn 2.

Yea a 2nd turn charge well thats really bad with all the units you have.

20 Black Knights -----only 20 they will get killed.

You dont have to make a cookie cutter army just make a non cookie cutter that won't suck basically and try to listen to people's advice.

Mod Mode on:

Everyone focus on the list issue. I will be editing posts to get this back on track people. I've had to modify multiple posts and will re-circle shortly to see if this thread can be saved. If that doesn't work further action will be taken.

Mod mode off.

Well if you are going to use that many ghouls I would give at least 1 Vampire Ghoul kin to extend the units past their starting size and get that march move before the game starts. I would only field 2 units of 10 of Ghouls at the most. Dire wolves are great screens for your nasties that you bring, I field a Black Coach usually. I believe the 200 pts are worth it. Making units larger than their starting size is the bread and butter of the VC. I play a very magic heavy 2250pt army and have no problem against gun lines or heavy missle oriented armies due to raising the guys they kill. I have also outnumbered units of Skaven and Night goblins to make them run away. I like the Black Knights ability to ignore terrian, but 4 units of 5 may be a little bit of a stretch for the points. I would take a Necromancer on a corpse cart with Balfire. The Vampire Lord I use generates 6 power die by herself, and I give the Necromancer a Black Periapt to give her 7 die along with the 2 in the pool. The Seoncd Vamp I usally field is my combat mauler. I would also make sure to bring a couple of Dispel Scrolls. The Banner of Hellfire is worthless unless you are playing Wood Elves or Tomb Kings. (I got stuck in a fight against Dragon Princes with Grave Guard, total waste of a good unit) If you want a cheap banner- War banner. that +1 to resolution really makes a difference.
On something else about losing the General, that blows a big one, but it is possible to pull out a tie at least! I have done it once!

Hope this helps and lets all try not to get so easily offended!!

One more thing,
I have never used the wraiths. I know that they will die from combat resolution against big blocks of infantry and magic will be targeted at them.

jfrazell wrote:Everyone focus on the list issue. I will be editing posts to get this back on track people. I've had to modify multiple posts and will re-circle shortly to see if this thread can be saved. If that doesn't work further action will be taken.

And now most of the thread is unintelligible. All I've gotten thus far is that Therion says the list sucks.

Wait, when did JFrazzel become a mod?

We voted him off the island, so now he's a dakka mod.

Dakka, where Survivor contests go...

well if your trying to have effective calvary drop your vamps into them. give them the knight upgrade and the combat resolution upgrade youll be routing units left and right.

against high elves fielding
3 bolt throwers
2 heros 1horse/ one bow
1lvl2mage
2 blocks of spearmen
3 blocks of archers
1 block of pheonix gaurd
1 large group of shadowwarriors
1 white lion chariot of chrace
and 2 units of silverhelms

the VC had
1 vampire knight combat resulitons ugrade
1 vampire knight upgrade standard bearer the that makes regeneration on unit
threw them into a block of 12 vamp knights with banner of 3 or 4+ ward vs missile
for core had
1 unit of ghouls
2 units of skeletons one with a banner so i didnt need a vampire to direct them
1 corpse cart with necromancer


long tale short what heppened was all skeletons ghoul units died including corpse cart and vampires assaulted the main highelf horse unit then preceded to trounce through the rest of them. untill only the shadow warroirs were left .
ill get back to this later and correct a few things and give points but its 1:40 am

overall i like the army list it just needs for at least one unit of 10 horse grouped with vamps that can support them into the enemy lines. and remember if the enemy happens to have rank upon rank make them run. if you cna force your opponent to choose upon what unit to expend his magical arts on your going to have better success