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I'm thinking handbows for units that will take charges, and two weapons
for units that you want to use to enslave (reduce unit flee speed). Will a line
of handbows do enough damage to make a difference in combat?

How much frontage should either unit have?

take two weapons always, as the handbows aren't really that good and will not make any difference fron the stand and shoot. frontage should be 5. always take msu elves in units of 10 with 5 frontage.

Not that I distrust you, but I tend to shy away from advice
that states "always".

see the problem with handbows is that they replace a hand weapon meaning less attacks which really sucks. also the corsairs can buy shields in addition to having the two hand weapons right? why not do that then and have so nasty elves for cc or msu depending on the opponent

Bastirous666 wrote:see the problem with handbows is that they replace a hand weapon meaning less attacks which really sucks. also the corsairs can buy shields in addition to having the two hand weapons right? why not do that then and have so nasty elves for cc or msu depending on the opponent

I'm not questioning your logic in this instance. I'm just wary of the statement that
Elves should ALWAYS be MSU 5 with 10. Unless you just meant corsairs.

i just meant for the corairs, and taking minimum numbers to still get the one rank is usually a good idea and in most instances makes the most sense for MSU. why spend more than you need to on something that is sacrificial and meant to die in the first place? that would be like giving the opponent VP for no reason other than you wanted to.

standard MSU style says takes units in least number possible, and run them at minimum width to have two ranks (especially for elves who usually will have spears then as well).

i guess you could go against the grain an take big spear blocks or big corsair units but it really is unnecessary and defeats the MSU purpose.

also i have to take back the advice about arming the corsairs. since handbows do count as hand weapons in CC then there is no reason not to take one or even pay the points for having two handbows. multiple shots x4 always shooting with no penalty other than charges or multiple shots is great stuff

I'll have to check about that. I'm hearing two different
things from two different places about the handbow rules.

Guess I'm visiting a GW store in the near future.

Bastirous666 doesn't have all the facts so I would hold off on his advice.

Handbows are not hand weapons.

Nor are they a terrible option for the corsairs.

Handbows ignore the moving and long range penalties for shooting. So move into ~7-8" range, and your 5 guys will unload 10 str 3 shots that hit on 4+. Give your champion a second handbow (why not, at this point since you lose nothing) and that's 2 more shots. If they charge you, you get to stand and shoot, maybe causing a Panic test. Hopefully you'll kill the odd model here and there, which will knock off a rank or reduce outnumbering. Against other Movement 5 guys who charge the same as you, it allows you to do some damage if you're not sure you can outcharge him.
Giving up the charge isn't good, but that's where Assassins come in. For 120pts or so you got a guy with 4 high WS attacks, Hating, and wounding at worst on 3+ with Manbane.

I'm not saying 2 hand weapon guys are strictly worse. Against slower armies, they are probably better. But the flexibility of the shooting make the handbow ones winners in my book.

Zoned

dude, they're handbows. That sounds pretty sound to me.

here's a question. If you were to take 2x weapons would you be better off with Warriors, Wyches or other instead. If they are in fact CALLED Wyches.

malfred wrote:

Bastirous666 wrote:see the problem with handbows is that they replace a hand weapon meaning less attacks which really sucks. also the corsairs can buy shields in addition to having the two hand weapons right? why not do that then and have so nasty elves for cc or msu depending on the opponent

I'm not questioning your logic in this instance. I'm just wary of the statement that
Elves should ALWAYS be MSU 5 with 10. Unless you just meant corsairs.

Yeah, that's ridiculous. With the exception of a block of spearmen, I think it would be pretty rare to use an infantry frontage of less than 6.

not for MSU, unless you don't understand the principle of MSU. the idea in that type of list is bait and switch, by using some units as throw aways and suckering your opponent into charging one of the crap units to the get multi charged by chariots, large blocks, etc. so that the said unit will instantly crumble in one all out massive charge. therefore why spend extra points (even only 16) on two or three extra models that are meant to be throw aways and such small VP's that their loss won't change the game at all. spending the points on those two extra guys to have 6 frontage is stupid and taking away from where points should be, int he closer units.

MSU is far different from any other style of play as well so don't take my advice as going any farther than that. i personally feel that any unit that isn't supposed to be a sacrifice and that gets ranked up should have a frontage of 6 (that's only for units you care about having ranks in)

While elves prosper from the MSU Tactic it is not always the best way to run them. Very often I find that having a large block or two in the list will go along way against armies like Bretonians and other elven armies. if you plan to go the MSU route its best to take units of 12 rather than 10. having a 6 wide frontage will make a world of difference.

Also consider running shades as opposed to Corsairs with handbows. Since they are skirmished units they will tend get themselves into a good position and be able to do damage from there.

Another idea would be to add a good portion of Kainite Units into the list to take advantage of the Assassins that can pop out of them.

All in all you might want to get 2 - 3 flanking units of Corsairs and back them up with a block of Blackguard This should give you a good solid base that you can work with.

again i think they still should be minimum size to produce maximum effectiveness. to me the small units in the MSU style should be backed up by one or two large blocks of other troops (as i said above) which takes advantage of both styles of play and the small units are for one thing and one thing only, to deny ranks, so what does having a frontage of 6 matter for that? none at all, that's how much. that one extra attack will buy maybe more kills but does difference for denying ranks and adding the flank or rear bonus