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Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

You guys have been very helpful and I'm incredibly grateful, I've taken much of the advice given and used it to create the following list. What do you think?
I wish I could have afforded 2 units of thunderers, but I'm convinced the quarrellers will do almost as well and for 40 points less than a unit of thunderers.
I'm happy with my characters, but I'm especially interested in your opinions on my rune choices. I originally had full command on units of 25 warriors, but decided
that a unit of 10 miners was a fair trade. Was it? My last few points went towards giving a musician to my miners but could easily have given a shield to my Runelord instead, what do you think?
I'm trying to make this competitive, but I can't begin play testing until I have at least an initial build in front of me. I love slayers, but I'm not sure what they would do in an army like this and I'm not
sure I could fit them in if I tried.
Again any advice would be helpful and I'm very curious to hear your opinions.

Thanks for your time.

-Characters-
Runelord+Anvil of Doom+RoSpellbreaking+MRoSpite,RoStone+RoPreservation
Thane; GW, RoStone+RoResistance
Thane BSB; MroGromril

-Core-
20xWarriors+Standard, Music
20xWarriors+Standard, Music
10xThunderes+Shields
10xQuarrellers+Shields
10xQuarrellers+Shields


-Special-
10xMiners; Music
Bolt Thrower; Engineer+RoPenetration.
Bolt Thrower; Engineer, RoPenetration+RoBurning.
2xBolt Throwers


-Rare-240/6
2xOrgan Guns


103/1999
7 Dispel Dice
1 Rune of SPellbreaking

I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




No magic weapons other than your warmachines? Might be in trouble against something like Cairn Wraiths.
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't even considered. I did realize that in close combat I have almost no punch.
What if I dropped a unit of Quarrellers, freeing up 120 points? I could bulk up my warrior units and afford some runic weapons on my lords, would that
work? Any specific combos you recommend as far as weaponry?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/20 07:11:12


I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Steady Dwarf Warrior



Scottsdale, AZ

My advice --

First off, drop the MRoSpite and RoPreservation on your Runelord. Give him another RoSpellbreaking and a Great Weapon. It's great to keep your Runelord alive, but a cunning foe will simply engage the Anvil with fast cavalry. Runes cannot be struck while you're in close combat, so the priority is to clear out any entangling units rather than to keep your Runelord alive. If a powerful unit reaches the anvil (Blood Knights, Varghulf, etc) you've already lost the game.

Your Thane should be a Thane of Pain. That is... RoCleaving, 2x RoFury, RoStone. You come out with 5 S5 attacks and have a 2+ save. You can swap a RoFury for another RoCleaving if you really want S6.

Drop an Organ Gun for a Gyrocopter for march blocking. Combined with the Anvil, you can take a unit of say... Grail Knights down from a 16" march to a 4" move. It's ridiculously strong and lets you dictate your opponent's movement in a way that you just can't get otherwise.

Miners work best in groups of 8. You don't need command. They're in the game to harass enemy war machines and or to flank/rear charge units engaging your main battle line. All a musician will do is help them once they've already broken, but Miners aren't worth tooling up at all unless you have a good fluff reason for it.

Why do both of your bolt throwers have an RoPenetrating? S7 for killing chariots? That's all I can think of, but squeezing in a Cannon with the RoForging (which all cannon should come with by default anyway) will give you a much more dangerous S10 and averages a lot more hits anyway.

My biggest concern about the whole list is that a powerful fear-causing army such as Daemons or VC will simply eat you alive. You have nothing at all to mitigate fear, and your blocks aren't that big. Striking Ancient Power on your Anvil s a 50/50 proposition. If you can fit something in to deal with fear... so much the better. Ld9 is awesome, but it doesn't do you any good when you don't get to roll in the first place. It doesn't help that you only have two "line infantry" units, so a combined charge against them is almost a given. A unit of Hammerers with RoCourage is worth its weight in gold. In any list.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but... what are you shooting for with this list?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/20 18:39:58


 
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Didn't come across as harsh at all. Honestly, since I'm still in the construction and painting phase I haven't had a chance to play or even watch a game yet. I know I should build up in blocks of 500, but I really want to start playing full 2,000 point games and would prefer to skip directly to that step. What I'm going for is a dwarf list of just about any variety that is competitive and that I will have fun playing. I would love it to include Slayers, but they seem so vulnerable that I'm afraid to use them. The only thing I'm dead set on is the anvil and a unit of thunderers (I would prefer 2), I like miners a lot too-but I wouldn't want to include more than I need. I'm glad you recommended the gyrocopter because that is another piece I would like to include in the build. I'm not above borrowing a list that has already proven itself as long as it included the anvil and at least a few of my favorite units, namely slayers, miners or Ironbreakers. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I don't know where to find competitive and proven dwarf lists. Thanks for the detailed advice, thats exactly what I was looking for.

I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Steady Dwarf Warrior



Scottsdale, AZ

Unfortunately, most really competitive Dwarf lists at this point are variations on the Thorek gunline. That is... take Thorek Ironbrow, a bunch of Thunderers, and shoot your opponent to death. It's like playing 40k, except that your opponent can't really fight back. I don't personally find it much fun.

The next most competitive list would be the "Stubborn Squeeze", which would mean taking two ~ 15 strong units of Hammerers for a really solid battle line to hold up enemy units. Then shoot your opponent to death.

I am extremely sympathetic to a desire to include some specialty units that aren't generally regarded as being powerful, like Ironbreakers. Do you want to run a largely shooty list (something like 3x Thunderers, 2x Bolt Thrower, Cannon, Organ Gun, + 20x Ironbreakers, Anvil, Gyro) or something more... fighty?
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Well I won't play thorek, because I don't feel that the special characters are balanced well (especially Thorek) and I strongly feel that I should be playing the game as sportingly as possible.
Are Hammerers still better than Ironbreakers if I'm using a runelord instead of the other lord? I like the Ironbreakers a tad more, but not enough to include them over better options. I would like my army to be as balanced as possible with strong options during each phase (excepting the magic phase). I do not like the idea of a pure gunline army, even my above build having more ranged units than I would really like to field.

So far something like this...
Runelord+Anvil
2 blocks of 10 Thunderers w/t Shields
2 blocks of 20-25xWarriors w/t Shields, FC if possible but I'll settle for music and a banner.
2+ Bolt Throwers (with at least one RoPenetration between them, Engineers?)
Cannon; Rune of Forging.
8 Miners
Organ Gun
Gyrocopter

Is the above at the very least a solid start? Is stubborn really more valuable than that amazing armor save? I feel like I should include engineers on the bolt throwers, do I need one for the Cannon? Are grudge throwers any good? Any uses for the flame Cannon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/21 07:46:48


I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Steady Dwarf Warrior



Scottsdale, AZ

I'm also not a big fan of the Dwarf special characters. Especially Thorek. Taking Thorek may be competitive, but it's a very easy way to make your opponent very angry.

Hammerers are always better than Ironbreakers, in my opinion. When Hammerers take shields (as they always should, if only to have an option) they have a 3+ save. 3+ versus 2+ is not an enormous difference, but Stubborn is.

Your list looks pretty decent and balanced. Sqeezing in one hitty CC unit would make a big difference. Especially in how your opponent sees your army, as you look largely shooty right now. I admit that I personally hate playing a gunline. It's deeply unsatisfying for me personally, and I can't imagine my opponent appreciating that the entire game basically hinges on the handfuls of dice that I throw rather than on movement/flanking/tactics in general. My Dwarf list has two units of 10 Quarrelers and two Bolt Throwers. Part of that is because of the "background" of my army, but a lot of it is simply because I am not all that fond of shooting beyond having enough to pose a credible threat to units that you just can't handle in CC.

Engineers on the Bolt Throwers are a given. I personally equip Engineers with a Brace of Pistols which, again, is just to pose a credible threat of a panic test to your 5x Goblin Wolf Riders or the like. I do not think that Cannons need Engineers. A Grudge Thrower can be awesome if you're good at guessing ranges and the scatter die loves you . If not... best off forgetting it.

The Flame Cannon is wonderful against certain armies (Skaven, Orcs and Goblins, Empire, and other low-ish leadership armies with fat, easy-to-hit blocks) but terrible against Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skink Lizardmen, Wood Elves, or basically any other army where rolling an 8 on the artillery die instead of a 4 might make the difference between a total miss and a worthwhile shot. Basically, your mileage may vary. I kind of like Flame Cannons, but I'm aware that Organ Guns are a much better all-purpose weapon.

BTW (I meant to say this before), Bugman's Brewery is the home of Dwarfs on the 'Net. The forums and whatnot there are great.
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Here is what I've come to after impliminting much of your advice. I'm over by quite a few points though and was wondering if you had anymore advice for me. I would rather have thunderers over quarrellers and I want to keep at least 10. I can remove the champion from my hammerers and was wondering if a rune of Stoicism would do a comparible (or better?) job than the rune of courage, saving me a few more points. A pair of organ guns seems strong and is cheaper than the Gyro, but I wanted to hear your opinion before I start butchering my list.

Characters
Runelord; Anvil of Doom, Shield, Great Weapon, 2xRune of Spellbreaking, RoStone.
Thane; Shield, RoStone, RoCleaving and 2xRoFurry.
Thane; BSB, MroGromril.
Core
10xThunderers; Shields.
10xQuarrellers; Shields.
20xWarriors; Shields, Standards, Music.
20xWarriors; Shields, Standards, Music.
Special
8xMiners
Cannon; Rune of Forging.
2xBolt Throwers; Engineers with BoP, RoPenetration.
15xHammerers; Shields, FC, RoCourage.
Rare
Organ Gun
Gyrocopter

2179 points...

I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Steady Dwarf Warrior



Scottsdale, AZ

This is the best I could do. A lot of options had to go. I should point out that I'm used to playing 2250 instead of the old standard 2000, so options are a bit more... free. The biggest things gone -- musicians had to go, as did the runes and engineers on the Bolt Throwers. You lost one miner, and a couple of normal Dwarfs (to make room in the ranks for your thanes). Some runes on the characters. And... a Gyrocopter got swapped back for an Organ Gun.

RoStoicism doesn't really compare to RoCourage, sadly. Double unit strength only puts the Hammerers at US 30, and a mere five wounds knocks them below the crucial US 20 against fear-causing enemies. Better to guarantee that you'll hold the line for a couple of turns IMO. Some of the losses hurt, but this is as bare-bones as it gets and nearly all of your models stayed in the list (as did extraneous stuff like shields on Thunderers). Tweak to your heart's desire.

Runelord on Anvil of Doom, RoSpellbreaking

Thane with 2x RoFury, RoCleaving, RoStone

Thane, BSB, RoStone

10x Thunderers with shields.
10x Thunderers with shields.

19x Dwarf Warriors with shields (BSB goes here), Standard.
20x Dwarf Warriors with shields, Standard.

14x Hammerers with RoCourage, Standard. Other Thane goes here.

7x Miners (less than optimal, I know)

2x Bolt Throwers. No runes, no Engineers.

Cannon with RoForging.

2x Organ Gun.

1996 Pts.
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Beautiful thank you!
If I trade a unit of thunderers for a unit of quarrellers I free up 30 points.
In your opinion, what are the most important things for those points to go towards?
Or, are thunderers actually the best place for those points?

I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in us
Steady Dwarf Warrior



Scottsdale, AZ

Speaking of Mathhammer and pure wounds against T3 troops with heavy armor + shield (4+ save), virtually nothing you can do will make those 30 points better invested than in Thunderers.

That said, you might find it worthwhile to add that RoPenetrating back, or a RoSpellbreaking, the MRoGromril, 2x Engineers for your bolt throwers, or any number of other choices.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/07/22 17:00:09


 
   
Made in us
Annoying Groin Biter



Battle Ground, Washington

Thanks again for all your help.

I used to dream of being a great writer,
last night I dreamt that the house burnt down. 
   
Made in ca
Horrific Horror







For a Dwarf Army I have used the following and done OK in tournaments.

Thorek
Rune Smith
Master engineer
Thane

2X Bolt +1STR (1 burning)
Cannon (forging and MEngineer)
Grudge
Iron Breakers 20

Warriors20
Long Beards15
10-16 Quarrellers
10 Quarrellers

Organ Gun

Thane and Thorek have magical weapons along with all war machines (except OG)

Sit Back on hill or castle in corner and shoot shoot shoot. Thorek can slow the flyers and speed or can give you immunity to fear and terror.

Problem is pincer manuever or Fear and Terror getting across too quick. But if you aim is good you should be able to hold for a while.

I would say you are going to either win or loos big. Have not seen much of draws or minors.

Problem with Dwarfs is they do not have the movement to get across the field so they have to wait for their opponents to charge.

But on a happy Note I have chased Down a unit of Pegasus Knights with a Unit of Warriors. Took 3 rounds but I got them. Then had to turn unit around because it actually made it into opponents Deployment zone.

Good Luck.

What do you mean "IT MOVED?"

Motto: That which does not Kill me, SHOULD RUN. 
   
 
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