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Vanquisher is pretty much illegal at tourneys.

If you included attrition damage against the normal 'stock' configurations of vehicles, you'd really be over the top but I think it would help alot of new players.

The Vanquisher is from the Armoured Company list. I included it because it had a similar armour penetration to the melta.

I felt it was important to include glancing hits in damage because it is half the hits of an autocannon against armour 12. The damage roll becomes 3/6 for piercing and 1/6 for glancing. The 1/6 represents either immobilized or weapon destroyed depending on what you are facing. For tanks with more than one deadly weapon, like a Land Raider, you do need to hit it many times but it is not easy to include that in a simple damage model. So use a Meltagun.

I'm going to edit it to include Snipers because a SP Sniper took out one of my battle cannons. Also Raxmei suggested roughrRiders with melta-bombs.

There is an error in the Ratling chart. Ratlings cannot take Sharpshooters.

You are right, thanks.

WOW!

Appreciate the article, very informative. Especially all the tables.

great job!

Hi Major Treble

Great article! I found it very helpful, not only as an indepth look at tank hunting, but also as an analysis of the survivability of my own tanks in 5E. Armour 14 never looked so good.

The section showing meltas as superior to lascannons is entirely convincing, the part that I am less certain of is this:

The chart includes vehicle ordinance weapons to show how unsuitable they are for firing on other vehicles. Assuming that the template hits the vehicle, only a 50% chance, the ordinance has at best a 33% chance of doing anything.

The biggest problems from enemy armour 14 are probably the landraider and the monolith. Both of these are large; the template can be placed dead-centre on a LR or Mono and have between 2 (sideways) and 3' (to the corner) of scatter room while still keeping the hole on the hull. I'll focus on the Monolith since vs LR I prefer a drop team with meltaguns.

That means a 33% chance of direct hit, and a hit from a scatter-roll of up to 5 or 6 depending on direction (It might even be worth mentioning that when testing this, I found that scatter almost always seemed to catch some of those necron warriors who cluster around the monoliths).

To quote your article 'the ordinance has at best a 33% chance of doing' in fact an S10 Demolisher vs Monolith picks the higher of 2 dice:
It is more likely to glance or penetrate than it is to do no damage (because there are two rolls at a 50% chance of scoring damage, and the higher is used)
It is more than twice as likely that the damage will be penetrating rather than glancing (because 4 glances and 5 or 6 penetrate, but if two dice of 4 or more are rolled the lower is discarded)

This brings me to the following conclusion:


There is a time when Melta guns just don't cut it: When it comes to actually KILLING a monolith, the Demolisher Cannon is the best weapon available to Codex Guard.

Opps, the 33% should be a 66%. Again assuming 50% chance for the scatter to hit, which is very generous, the chance is (Hit 1/3 + Scatter 2/3 * 1/2) 2/3.

How did you get 2d6 for the demolisher? Anti-tank rounds are an armoured company doctrine and use the vehicle's BS so another 50% chance to miss. The vanquisher from armoured company has them by default.

If all you have are tanks, then you will have to shoot with ordinance. Otherwise, you are better off using lascannons.

To have an even chance of hitting with a demolisher, you would need to fire 6.5 shots and the lascannon 22.7 shots. You have a demolisher or an anti-tank squad firing for 6 turns. The demolisher would do more damage throwing it's pie plate around and killing space marines.

The multi-melta sponsons would require 5.9 shots or three turns of shooting.

I played a game against an Sister's Exorcist with d6 missles at Str 8 and AP1. That is definately for vehicles.

Opps, the 33% should be a 66%. Again assuming 50% chance for the scatter to hit, which is very generous, the chance is (Hit 1/3 + Scatter 2/3 * 1/2) 2/3.
How did you get 2d6 for the demolisher?

I'll start at the beginning just to make sure we're on the same page.
I've actually got a little carried away in writing this, so perhaps I should get soemone to check the maths and make a new article about killing Monoliths with Ordnance!
Or add it to your's.

1) A lot of this also applies to shooting Landraiders, although as they are not quite as large and are considerably more vulnerable to Meltaguns, the focus is on the hardest vehcile to destroy; the Necron Monolith.
2) I am ignoring cover for three reasons; its hard to get a full 50% cover on a Monolith, under current rules a Demolisher can MOVE to get a better angle and fire ordnance, and to work out the effect of cover the chance of every result is simply halved.
3) Numbers are rounded. My view in gaming 'Memorability trumps precision'.


To Hit
Using a Demolisher cannon means 33% are direct hits without any scatter. Against the A14 Monolith with its base dimensions of 6x6 inches, if the template was placed dead-centre a 3 inch scatter is also a hit.

Chance to hit a target of between 6 and 7 inches across (eg Monlith) requires a roll of 6 or under on 2 dice (so that the BS3 is enough to ensure a hit) = 15/36 = 41.6% of the scatters will hit.

41.6% of the scatters (27.7% of all shots) + 33.3% direct-hits = 61% chance of a hit on a Monolith using a Demolisher Cannon

Against so large a target as a monolith, the Imperial Guard's finest battle tank will hit 61% of its shots.


To Penetrate
To quote your article 'the ordnance has at best a 33% chance of doing anything' in fact an S10 Demolisher vs Monolith picks the higher of 2 dice:

It is more likely to glance or penetrate than it is to do no damage (because there are two rolls at a 50% chance of scoring damage, and the higher is used)
It is more than twice as likely that the damage will be penetrating rather than glancing (because 4 glances and 5 or 6 penetrate, but if two dice of 4 or more are rolled the lower is discarded)

Chance to GLANCE a Monolith
The Demolisher will hit 61% of its shots against a large (6'+ across) target.
A four is required to glance.
The Demolisher fires Ordnance, so two dice are rolled and the higher number is picked. The chance of rolling a 4 on two dice is 30.5% (not quite the 1/3 you might expect) BUT any roll where the second dice is higher than 4 will have the 4 discarded. This leaves 7/36 where the 4 is higher, or 19.4%.

The chance of GLANCING a monolith with a demolisher hit is 19.4%, or you can roughly expect to glance 1 Monolith for every 5 turns hit, or every 9 or 10 times you fire at it.
One third of the glances will stop it firing, other results are equally split among stopping it moving and firing, destroying a weapon (IMHO the worst result vs this target) and immobilising it.


Chance to PENETRATE a Monolith

The Demolisher will hit 61% of its shots against a large (6'+ across) target.
A five is required to penetrate.
The Demolisher fires Ordnance, so two dice are rolled and the higher number is picked. The chance of rolling a 5 or 6 on two dice is 20/36 = 55% (less than the 2/3 you might expect)
The chance of Penetrating a monolith with a demolisher shot is 61% (chance to hit) x 55% (chance to penetrate) = 33.5%, or you can expect one penetrating hit for every 3 turns you fire at it.
The chance of Penetrating a monolith with a hit is 55%, or you can roughly expect a penetrating hit on a Monolith 2 turns you hit.

One third of the penetrating hits will destroy the target, other results are equally split among stopping it moving and firing, destroying a weapon (IMHO the worst result vs this target) and immobilising it.

Chance to DESTROY a Monolith
To destroy a monolith requires a hit (61%), a penetration (55%) and a destroyed result on the damage chart (33%) = 11%
YOu can expect it to take an average of 9 shots at a Monolith to kill it.


Conclusions
Every time you fire a Demolisher Cannon at a Monolith, you have a 19.4% chance of glancing it and a 33.5% Chance of Penetrating

By adding the Glancing to the Penetrating results, you can see the odds of each outcome being the result of a shot

Miss 39%
Hit without damage 9.72%
Shake 9.7% (from glancing hits) + 7% (from penetrating hits) =18.4%
Stun 3.2% +7% =10.2%
Destroy Weapon 3.2% +7% =10.2%
Immobilise 3.2% +7% =10.2%
Destroy/Explode 0% + 14% =14%

Chance to do something: 52 % per shot
Chance to do nothing: 48 % per shot


Cunning Template Tactic 1
A tactic that just occurred to me while writing this is that a blast template Should Not be placed dead-centre on the target after all; it should be placed 2' from 2 sides. That way if the hypothetical target is around 5' across, there is a better chance of hitting because in two directions there are 3' of target instead of 5'.


Cunning Template Tactic 2
If the Necron Warriors are clustered around the monolith (as they often are) fire a demolisher at it! A scatter is likely to kill some, and if the Dice Gods love you its possible to kill some Necrons and still have a penetrating hit on the Mono.

To Hit

So thats 33.3+ 27.7 = 60% chance of a direct hit on a LandRaider using a Demolisher Cannon

It is a 1/3 chance of a 100% hit and a 2/3 chance of a 27.7% hit. This gives

Hit (1/3) + Scatter (2/3) * (10/36) = 0.52 (14/27)

I had used a generous 66% but this seems better.

Effective Damage

I defined effective damage as both Destroyed results and one of the Damaged results depending on the context. So a penetrating has a 3/6 chance and a glancing 1/6 chance to get once of those results.

Shake 11.4 +7% =18.4%

I don't understand how you got this.



Ordinance

I did the penetration chance wrong on the Ordinance weapons in the charts. By mistake, I calculated it as if you rolled twice on the damage results table and picked the higher one.

Here are the chances to roll a number or higher with 2d6.

6 - 11/36
5 - 20/36 (5/9)
4 - 27/36 (3/4)
3 - 32/36 (8/9)
2 - 35/36
1 - 36/36

A demolisher has the following chance to hit 14 in cover, not including scatter.

Cover (1/2) * Penetrating Hit (5/9) * Damage (3/6) + Cover (1/2) * Glancing Hit (3/4-5/9) * Damage (1/6) = 0.16 (67/432)

Glance and Penetrate

With a 14/27 chance to hit from the scatter, everytime you fire at armour 14 in cover with a Demolisher:

Chance to Penetrate 1/2 * 5/9 * 14/27 = 35/243 (0.14)
Chance to Glance 1/2 * (3/4-5/9) * 14/27 = 49/972 (0.05)

Chance to Damage 3/6 * 35/243 + 1/6 * 49/972 = 23/286 (0.08)
67/432 * 14/27 = 23/286 (0.08)


I have updated the article and Ordinance has it's own section. Thanks for challenging my math and logic.

Thanks for the mention for my defending the demolisher

To continue to do so, I offer the following

Having several lascannons gives for a more stable probability curve since you are rolling several dice. It is harder to kill them because they are cushioned by the wounds of the squad. The demolisher costs 155 points but also comes with a nice ordinance marker and front armour 13.

The front armour is actually 14.
Not only is that higher than you've mentioned, but also its the magic number that is the whole driving force behind your article -- Armour 14 is really hard to kill with shooting now, so the demolisher is a tough nut.

That marker template might be worth more killing infantry than tanks.

As mentioned above, if the Necron Warriors are clustered around the monolith (as they often are) a scatter is likely to kill some, and if the Dice Gods love you its possible to kill some Necrons and still have a penetrating hit on the Mono.
Thats idealistic, but certainly not impossible.

So the 12"/6" melta carried by a T3 5+ soldier is more effective than the lascannon that can bzap tanks from 48 inches away...

Better doesn't mean practical. While meltaguns do make good Guardsman special weapons, for real tank-hunting you'd be far more likely to have success (and when it matters) with a lascannon, as you get more turns to use it, more oppertunities to bring more than one to bear, and if you do destroy them you do so where it, you know, might matter. Think about it, our primary AV14 vehicles are the Land Raider (transport) the Battlewagon (transport) the Monolith and the Leman Russ. Two of them are transports, both of which tend to carry things like terminators and ork warbosses. Kill them with the meltagun, and they have meat siting right their when they leave the vehicle. Kill them with a lascannon, and they are all the way over there and have to walk across the table while you shoot them with other weapons.

In a drop trooper army, you can obviously count on the meltagun more than the lascannon, but otherwise, try to have both on hand, or go for the one that best fits the tactics of your army.

The front armour is actually 14.

I think the unusual 13 side armour drifted into my mind.

If you had a large cluster of any models, it would be good to put the marker in the middle. You could target the warriors and be happy if the Monolith was hit.

So the 12"/6" melta carried by a T3 5+ soldier is more effective than the lascannon that can bzap tanks from 48 inches away...

It is more points cost effective and in straight killing power.

You have a good description of the trade off between the melta and lascannon. You also have to consider the points costs of each and that the lascannons are taking HW spots away from the autocannon. Once that land raider is dead, the autocannons would be more useful. If your opponent had a land raider and rhino, it would be better to kill the rhino with autocannons and wait for a vet team to take out the land raider.

However, I played Apoc on sat and I took a heavy weapons platoon full of lascannons.

So the 12"/6" melta carried by a T3 5+ soldier is more effective than the lascannon that can bzap tanks from 48 inches away...

Definitely!
We're dealing with a new reality of ultra-survivable heavy vehicles. Lascannons are not cutting it.

If the enemy has a landraider heading towards your lines with no cover to any of your lascannons, a IG Lascannon has a 5.55% chance of killing it.

BS3 shot (50%) * Penetrating Hit (1/6) * Damage (3/6 counting either explodes or immobilised) = 4.17%
PLUS
BS3 shot (50%) * Glancing Hit (1/6) * Damage (1/6 only counting immobilised) = 1.38%

Equals a 5.55% chance of either immobilising/destroying a LR if it is not in cover

To stop it working as a transport you need it killed/immobilised in 1 turn. If you have 18 lascannons with a clear view that can fire at it you have a very good chance of killing or immoblising it, but even in a hypothetical 6 Heavy Weapon platoons that costs 720pts. At that point size the enemy is likely to have a second landraider.

If that seems unlikely, each shot from a single deepstriking squad with JO and 4 meltaguns has a 22% chance of neutralising the target - higher if you get Sharpshooters (one of the few places I'd recommend it)

Its not ideal, deepstrike is risky and the LR may have unloaded already, but its your best shot.

I´m not that much of a mathexpert but if someone could redo this article and make for 5th ed. it would be realy nice.