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From the discussion here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/215984.page

20 pathfinders, 2 farseers with fortune/doom/guide, and 2 dark reaper squads with exarch w/tempest and fast shot.
It would also have 2 units of Harlequins (see tactics later on).

It cannot kill heavy tanks (except charging land raiders, but thankfully they can't kill you so it all works out.)

You can fortune as needed (usually the reapers) but if it isn't needed, you can guide whoever you like (pathfinders or reapers); then doom two targets and let her rip.

This is how this army works:

Find the spot where the enemy will be most slowed by difficult terrain when he tries to get to you. Ignore cover, you don't need it you have your own.

This army does have problems with mech lists, but most do until the paradigm shift occurs where 8+ meltaguns is common in every army.

You can take light mech (AV12 or less) and rhino rushes but it won't be easy by any means.

aka This is a theory army, exploring which helps new players grasp some of the finer points of the game. To make a more balanced army list I'd bring tank busting instead of the dark reapers, I consider both the dark reapers AND pathfinders mutually exclusive. You bring one or the other, not both.

Since both work with the way this army is designed, I'll just leave them both in so you can really see how an Eldar army works when properly supported and built to work as a cohesive whole.

All the way past the list for more tactics, please.

=================================

1750 Pts - Eldar Roster - Annoyance

1 Farseer @ 160 Pts
Psyker; Doom ; Fortune ; Guide ; Fleet; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Runes of Witnessing (RofWit); Spirit Stones (P:SpStn); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

1 Farseer @ 175 Pts
Psyker; Doom ; Fortune ; Guide ; Fleet; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Runes of Warding (RofWard); Runes of Witnessing (RofWit); Spirit Stones (P:SpStn); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)

10 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 240 Pts
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x10); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

10 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 240 Pts
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x10); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

4 Dark Reapers @ 227 Pts
Reaper Launcher (RL)
1 Dark Reaper Exarch @ [87] Pts
Fast Shot (FS); Tempest Launcher (TL)

4 Dark Reapers @ 227 Pts
Reaper Launcher (RL)
1 Dark Reaper Exarch @ [87] Pts
Fast Shot (FS); Tempest Launcher (TL)

6 Harlequin Troupe @ 242 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x6); Shuriken Pistol (x6); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Troupe Master @ [48] Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Power Weapon; Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

6 Harlequin Troupe @ 238 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x5); Shuriken Pistol (x6)
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp)
1 Harle Troupe Master @ [48] Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Power Weapon; Fusion Pistol (Fp)

Total Roster Cost: 1749

========================

So, you setup the Harlies in front of your Pathfinders (in front of your Dark Reapers).

Gives everyone cover.

Now I have 2 farseers, how do I make this army work for me?

Well, here's the pathfinders:

They hit on 3+ with 10 shots. With guide, they have a re-roll to hit.

Say 8 hits. 3 of which will be AP1.

Now they wound on a 4+.

5 rolls at normal AP, 3 at AP1. That should generate 3/2 wounds.

Not bad, also not great--they do kill MC but they have a problem against hordes.

So what about Dark Reapers?

Well, Dark Reapers when guided do this:

Deny everyone but terminators saves. That's very important, as it means you must have a cover save.

Hit on 3+, fire 8 shots and 3 templates.

8 shots with re-rolls should give you 6 hits.

With re-rolls to wound via doom, you should get 5+ wounds against T4. 6 vs T3, and 4 vs T6.

Then you toss out the exarchs tempest launcher. See, crack shot is nice when the enemy is IN terrain...but just aim (if you can) at the part of the squad that is outside cover.

It's indirect fire, so...you won't get cover saves in the open with guys in the way versus direct fire.

You fire 3 of these, with a BS of 5 to reduce scatter (so you are very accurate). Partial hits are hits...so you can expect to get 2-3 guys with each shot. Let's say you get 8 hits.

Doom is on, so versus say Orks with T4 (or marines), you wound on 4+ and re-rolls give you 6 wounds.

So that's 6 dead and 5-6 wounds with cover saves (so 2.5 - 3 dead).

I prefer the reapers for overall killy, despite the fact I don't run them myself.

You doom a MC, it's going to die with guided reapers shooting at it.

I hope this helps people understand the difference between reapers and pathfinders.

you're off on the pathfinder numbers... to see the real numbers go here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215984.page

I could run more accurate numbers, but since I realize 40k doesn't deal in wounds or to hits that include decimal places I rounded.

Hopefully you realize the game system doesn't support mathematical accuracy and your numbers can never be accurate nor precise. You do realize this, don't you? You can't even get to one estimated digit.

I do find it amusing you post a link that I posted at the top of my own post...did you think I didn't read it or something?

If I wanted to argue your math, I would--but they are close enough. So are mine.

=] I was meaning for other people; but given that you did read my post I imagine it wouldn't have been that hard to get the numbers more accurate. Also 3.5 doesn't round down to 2 =P

I ran a list like this a few times a while back but I had mixed results. It did great against balanced lists but struggled against assault lists.

When you are discussing theory, you can get close enough to discuss the theory and not focus on the mathematical.

In short, you used percentages to try and alleviate the fact that you are rating a D6 system and can't exactly get the correct numbers because 68% doesn't match a 6 sided dice.

I could care less about the numbers being 100%, I want people to grasp the difference in the units.

I've personally long ago passed on pathfinders (I played 3 games with them at the GT last year because I had to, else I would have dumped them after just 1 game). Reapers too.

They can be effective, but they have serious issues (the primary one Darrian pointed out) against several army types.

People do need to know that even the most effective build is not really effective when you consider the force org slot, what else you can take, how 5E actually plays, cover saves for everyone, and how much you just spent to get those 5 guys dead a turn.

If you put the reapers behind the pathfinders, so the Harlies are giving everybody cover...wouldn't the enemy almost always have cover against the reapers?

whitedragon wrote:If you put the reapers behind the pathfinders, so the Harlies are giving everybody cover...wouldn't the enemy almost always have cover against the reapers?

Everyone will have cover anyway, so all the reapers manage is to negate marine saves from 3+ down to 4+.

The tempest launcher still negates cover and that's the killer.

It saddens me that the death jesters didn't make this list.

Cool theoretical list..

Looking at it and thinking about it after reading your tactical explanation will probably bring a lot of players out of the box a little more when thinking about designing their own lists. It hits these points well.

- you don't need terrain to get cover

- it's ok to let your opponent have cover (he's probably designed his list to have it anyway, or he has 3+ saves)

- it is ok to "not be able to kill heavy tanks" Look at you list, look at popular heavy tanks... do you even need to kill them? The only heavy tank that EVERYONE needs to be able to kill is a scoring land raider. But scoring land raiders get close to you, so you don't need to kill them at long range.

After everyone has learned all of these lessons... the list isn't all that competitive... which Stelek has already mentioned... Don't run out and buy these models if you don't already have them.

You may be on to something with 5th changes. I believe infantry aspect type builds are the key to new Eldar. Gone are the days of ubber skimmers except maybe mech tau because of thier hull down wargear option. Mybe figure out a way to squeeze in 1 more HarlequinScorp troop as CC is just plain brutal. Maugan RA may be an option also instead of that extra Farseer as he negates cover saves also?

Stelek, my question about the reapers was in reference to your "Mathhammer" earlier about the reaper's effectiveness against marines in the open, which is moot because in this build, their deployment makes everyone have cover.

Maugan Ra may negate cover saves but his AP is 5 and rending is kinda weaker in 5th. I mean he is still a badass but not the way he used to be.

Well Maugan Ra kills hordes for free.

He can usually put 4 wounds on marines.

I like him in a Harliesquad, suddenly it's got a really annoying gun attached that you can't shoot and he hurts in CC.

Good enough to still warrant a serious look.

I guess. I will stick with an avatar or a second farseer, but that is just my preference.

If the Farseer's only job is too babysit the pathfinders, wouldn't you be better off taking Eldrad for one, and Maugan Ra as your extra HQ? He can put out alot more Dakka then a farseer, and he can put the mean counter-charging hurt on whatever gets close to the pathfinders as well.

Also, since they're both Ulthwe, it's kinda fluffy? Or is Maugan Ra from Altansar, I forget.

Maugan Ra ran with Ulthwe's death theme for a while, then he "rescued" his long lost craftworld.

So who knows.

You are spot on the other statement. I just don't run Eldrad myself.