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Yakface's Carnifex article needs revision, but I've been doing some thinking about the role and equipping of Carnifexes in 40K 5, in the three main Tyranid Builds: Godzilla, Stealer Shock, and Horde. This may be somewhat presumptuous of me to declare these as the three main builds, but it provides a useful starting point for discussion.

We're all aware of the two most popular carnifii builds: the dakkafex and the gunfex. These builds are most popular for their efficacy, durability, and points-effectiveness. They reigned supreme in 40K 4, and the transition to 40K 5 has cost them slightly (especially in terms of ranged anti-tank), but not significantly.

The close-combat carnifex was close to utterly worthless in 40K 4. The pure close-combat fex is marginally more useful in 40K 5, but in general, I'm not seeing massive improvement in the efficacy of the CCfex in 40K 5.

I think, however, that the hybrid-fex has become significantly more useful in 40K. In particular, there's one design I'd like to toss out there for discussion:

The Stranglerfex

With a barbed strangler, and scything talons, the Stranglerfex costs exactly as much as a Dakkafex.

With double the range of the dakkafex, the stranglerfex makes use of the new blast marker rules to add more long-range S8 shooting to the Tyranid force. BS2 of the Stranglerfex means its scattters are a bit more wild, but as just under half of the time the scatter will be 3" or less, I'd consider that acceptable accuracy. The scytal could be replaced by rending claws, but I really don't see any advantage to doing that, as none of the biomorphs seem worthwhile.

You trade a bit of accuracy for greatly improved range and anti-tank capability, and slightly improved assault capability.

Worthwhile?

I agree with you Bill that the strangler-fex makes for a good build especially with the new blast rules. Then theres the Blast-Fex (tm) with Barbed Strangler and twin-linked Deathspitter for 120 points that makes for an accurate shooting and hitting at respectively S8 (strangler) and S7 (Dspitter).

What I have seen that is quite effective is the Stelek-fex in terms of a hard hitting carnifex with the bio-morphs: Scything Talons x2, Toxic Miasma, +1 WS all for the cost of a normal dakkafex and with run, you can now get to combat faster. As Stelek says: "Now you hit most regular troops on 3+, with 5 attacks on the charge. You also stop WS5 from hitting you on 3+, which is important for survival."

One thing to add is that close combat Fexes requires army Synergy that includes synapse, catalyst, and feeder tendrils that make an ordinary fex into a rather scary one.

Barbed Strangler and TL Devourer @ BS2 is 115 points. ST are good too, though.

I think it is a worthwhile Elites choice, especially if you are playing Godzilla and say two Heavies are close combat monsters.

I think there are several major builds you can run, but I think the two key concepts to keep in mind when building them are:

1) Can you duplicate the build at least 3 times, and preferably 6 (or run two sets of purpose built fexes, one for elite and one for heavy although I don't recommend it).

2) What is the rest of your army and are these builds complimentary?

I see alot of possibilities with different fex builds and the return to viability of mass gaunt (and warrior) armies, which hitherto have been little more than cheap throwaway units.

I considered the blast-fex for a bit...but the venom/strangler combo is still too useful, if only for its ability to shut down enemy shooting from armor.

I'm also considering the usefulness of bio-plasma again.

There is always the off chance you can kill a vehicle simply by stripping it of any weapons and immobilizing it.

But yes Venom Cannons do work well in silencing enemy armor.

The problem I think for gunfexes are land raiders. Not only is it unlikely you'll kill them, but they're being moved to 'we always shoot' status like the Monolith. Given their popularity will do nothing but move up in the coming months, I think that's a real issue you have to deal with.

How are you guys figuring scy tals and a strangler on an elite fex? With 29 points to spend bio-morphs you've spent 33. Tsk tsk.

-Leo037

Remember.....the center hole of the BS template must be over the vechicle or it's S4....not the best anti-tank. As dumb as the only glaces rule the VC is still better.

I think the real problem for a Nidzilla list in 5th is the lack of useful cover for your MC's. You just can't find alot of places on the board to park you gunfexes and get cover. Also, it is just as hard to find cover to move through for your dakkafexes.

I played against a close combat based Nidzilla list (8 TMC's) at 1500 points last week and was able to kill 6 of them. Even with them running, they just were getting shot off the table.

Cypher037 wrote:How are you guys figuring scy tals and a strangler on an elite fex? With 29 points to spend bio-morphs you've spent 33. Tsk tsk.

-Leo037

Barbed Strangler - 20 pts.
Scything talons - 8.

Darrian13 wrote:I think the real problem for a Nidzilla list in 5th is the lack of useful cover for your MC's. You just can't find alot of places on the board to park you gunfexes and get cover. Also, it is just as hard to find cover to move through for your dakkafexes.

I played against a close combat based Nidzilla list (8 TMC's) at 1500 points last week and was able to kill 6 of them. Even with them running, they just were getting shot off the table.

What are you using that you are shooting them off the table so easily? I run an all CC zilla list and I only use 7 TMC's and on avg only lose 3 a game. Is he just using TMC's and spinegaunts? I also pack 3 squads of stealers which help a lot against gunlines.

You need to be able to make your own cover. Spinegaunts in front, tyrant and guard behind, and fex's behind them. I really think people dont play with enough terrain though.

I pretty much run my fex's like stelek's list. 2x scytals/miasma/WS on elite and that plus carapace and chitin on my heavies. I'll take tail mace's if i have extra points.

Khornatedemon wrote:You need to be able to make your own cover. Spinegaunts in front, tyrant and guard behind, and fex's behind them. I really think people dont play with enough terrain though.

You are basically giving up 6" or so by putting your carnifexes behind, and since you're running them without guns, that ensures they will take an extra turn to get anywhere useful. You could hide your hole army behind a wall of Carnies, or if you're that worried about it, behind a full Tyrant/Guard squad.

whitedragon wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:You need to be able to make your own cover. Spinegaunts in front, tyrant and guard behind, and fex's behind them. I really think people dont play with enough terrain though.

You are basically giving up 6" or so by putting your carnifexes behind, and since you're running them without guns, that ensures they will take an extra turn to get anywhere useful. You could hide your hole army behind a wall of Carnies, or if you're that worried about it, behind a full Tyrant/Guard squad.

I do run them behind the tyrant and guard. I just run spinegaunts in front of them. And only when facing a lot of long range firepower.

At a tourney at the Chicago Battle Bunker this past weekend the winning army (out of 24) was Tyranid. The most valuable player of the force was tripped out CC fex. Scy talons, crab claws, Toxin Sacs (I believe) and then the full defensive bumps (+1 W, +1 T, +1 Armor Save & regen). Battles were 1500 and the list had a cheaper fex (scy talons and VC) along with scuttling genestealers and a broodlord and buddies, along with other troops. The CC fex died in only one battle and was a beast against the Tau in the final round. Granted the Tau actually charged the 'Nid line with the tanks which none of us could understand.

The CC fex did a good job and dished out large amounts of pain (especially on Tau tanks, CC fex also started towards the center in that match as it was table quarter deployment) and kept the rest of his army from taking a large amount of shots as alot of attention was focused on the CC fex.

This was an extreme and expensive unit but a CC fex with good support can be a beast.

Spinegaunts don't provide cover to Carnifexes.

If you allow your opponent to claim cover for his carnies from being behing any troops, you are crazy.

I am not crazy. My oblits were cooking off a TMC a turn, at least.

you need the guard between the gaunts and the fex's for cover.

Its still better to field shooty MC's because the can still kick ass in CC.

At sum point its wise to use your (shooty)Carnifexes for CC and just RUN!!! At first you think its just a waiste not to use your BStrangler and vennom cannon but you will earn your points back in CC in turn 4,5,and 6.

Tacobake wrote:Barbed Strangler and TL Devourer @ BS2 is 115 points. ST are good too, though.

I think it is a worthwhile Elites choice, especially if you are playing Godzilla and say two Heavies are close combat monsters.

In needs to be less than 115 to be an Elite....and this time I looked at the FAQ

Stelek-fex....looks like the killer assault build.

I'm not a Tyranid player, but I just finished playing my first couple of 5th edition games against nids, and it seemed to me like the gunfex is much less effective than before--in line with the way that long-range antitank fire in general is less effective. In one game my opponent had 2 gunfexes plinking away for six turns at a pair of wave serpents, and he only managed one weapon destroyed and one stunned result the whole game.

I agree with those here who say that the best antitank carnifex is one tricked out for CC. The low initiative doesn't matter against vehicles--just sheer number of attacks and any possible rerolls. Then just run up, catch vehicles and smash them. With str10 hitting the rear armor, most non-landraider tanks will get auto-penned with every hit, with no cover saves possible.

No need to upgrade strength. You autopen 99% of the vehicles in the game with carnifexes.

S9+2D6 for being a monstrous creature = minimum 11.

I also fought a 1500 point Tyranid MC list in a tourney a few weeks ago. I never had a big problem with MC lists before and this one proved no different. He ran 8 MC and among them was a pair of Carnifexes with Venom Cannons and Barbed Stranglers. They were barely a threat and I basically ignored and finally went after them when I'd run out of targets. Barbed Stranglers got better, Venom Cannons seam to be nearly useless. The changes to the vehicle damage table means they are even less likely to ever take down a vehicle and they just don't have the AP they need to be useful.

I think the CC'fexes are going to be a lot better in 5E! For starters they can run now. With the new missions you'll also be getting to start with them on the board a whole lot more often, instead of always having them come in from reserve and slowly slog across the table. Those two changes right there made them a whole lot more viable.

I've never understood why people insist on taking the most consummate HtH army in the game and trying to make it the shootiest thing they can. No one plays a TAU HtH assault army, why in the hell are you trying to play a shooty 'nid army? Even the much revered Dakkafex to me isn't that big a of threat. It hits me with what, 4-6 wounds, that I still get to make all my saves for? Then it charges into the squad and gets its minimum number of attacks, very likely tieing itself up for the rest of the game. And you paid how many points to do this?

What army do you play swordbreaker, that you casually shrug off the attacks of a dakkafex?

Hmmm I'm guessing plague marines.

Dakka fexes usually put out 6-7 wounds on everybody lol.

I guess so. Dakka fexes usually scare the crap out of me.

Yep. Nothing like losing 2-3 marines (or worse) a turn and maybe putting a wound on it before you get dragged down.

Swordbreaker wrote:
I've never understood why people insist on taking the most consummate HtH army in the game and trying to make it the shootiest thing they can. No one plays a TAU HtH assault army, why in the hell are you trying to play a shooty 'nid army? Even the much revered Dakkafex to me isn't that big a of threat. It hits me with what, 4-6 wounds, that I still get to make all my saves for? Then it charges into the squad and gets its minimum number of attacks, very likely tieing itself up for the rest of the game. And you paid how many points to do this?

That's because Nids are really a shooting army that happens to be good in assault as well. Just like Orks are really a shooting army that does really good in assault. Tau are a shooty army that just sucks in assault.

The real difficulty with the dakkafex was never the single Dakkafex - it was Dakkafii - three of them running side-by-side, with a solid block of genestealers/gaunts/rippers behind them.

yeah, nidzilla was always the army that put the fear in me above all others. You must have a pretty incredible army there to not fear gunfexes or dakkafexes.

Nidzilla with gun Gojira are not 'good in assault'.

The rest of the army might be ok in assault, but if you run a assault army at those fexes they are going to be backing up--and if you have speedy units (cavalry, beasts, jump packs) those carnifex are dead. I'd gladly take a BA army straight into the normal Nidzilla army. I'll take a turn of casualties. Then the nids lose everything in my charge range, and countercharge me. The rending nerf has made marines much more viable against stealers, and I don't think the death race is anywhere near as weighted in the nids favor as it used to be.

Personally I've never feared shooty nidzilla and I don't think others should have, but certainly not now.

You should fear close combat nidzilla, because in the land of objective grabs they have a death zone they can project that you don't want to be anywhere near--and if that happens to be the middle of the table, it's not exactly fun trying to shoot them off nor is it fun to charge into that nonsense.