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I have been running fairly standard looking Zilla Nid list for about a year and I have found that keeping cover saves against mobile shooting is a very difficult thing to do with TMC in fifth. One thing to note is that I am currently running 3 dakkafex. Perhaps this choice is what is causing the issues, but I really favor the consistency in their shooting. Running a big Tyrant squad up front seems like an excellent idea (and I almost always do it), but if an enemy deploys on a flank it is hard to keep a majority of any model obscured. I have been thinking of a few possibilities to help my fatties deal with things like exorcists, blast masters, las cannons, and the like.

Regularly using two (or more) squads of stealers with scuttlers and feeder tendrils. This would help against non-mechanized lists, since it would force the opponent (or at least encourage them) to deploy closer to the center of the table.

Maybe drop a troop squad and grab a unit of flying rippers. If modeled appropriately it would be reasonable for a squad of rippers to block LOS to a large chunk of a gunline. Given their mobility they may be easy enough to keep alive, but they are pretty expensive for their task.


Does anyone have any advice on this issue? It just seems like running fexes, tyrants, and the odd stealer or gaunt seems to make cover almost non existant. I find that 12 gaunts in area terrain going to ground are more resilient than a fex (until they get flamed). This just does not make sense to me.

The key is to have 2 large Tyrant units. I've found 2 Tyrants and 6 Tyrant Guard to provide very good cover to my 3+ save carnifexes. I usually let the 2+Sv 5W Carnis fend form themselves and use the terrain on the board if possible.

Outflanking stealers are good, but I don't run them in games less than 2000 points. 33% of the time they don't show up where you need them. If you are going to run them, make sure you have 2 units.

Other than that, don't sweat the deaths of the carnifexes. Losing a fex used to mean a lot more than it does now, especially in an objective mission where they can't score.

I also see a lot fewer long range guns these days due to the vehicle damage rules. Fewer lascannons and more meltaguns is a great improvement in the meta game for carnifexes.

Spif wrote:
Maybe drop a troop squad and grab a unit of flying rippers. If modeled appropriately it would be reasonable for a squad of rippers to block LOS to a large chunk of a gunline. Given their mobility they may be easy enough to keep alive, but they are pretty expensive for their task.

Swarms never provide cover for Monstrous Creatures - see the swarm & MC rules .

I think it's best to accept that fexes are expendable under the current rules. You can improve their survival by including tyrant guard and dancing behind them, but part of the strength of the 'zilla list is that you are forcing your opponents to focus on fighting the big bugz, while your troops get in position to score.

Thats a shame about swarms. It might have actually worked.

It is just surprising to see how less resilient they are now in 5th compared to before. Using terrain for shooty fexes was often a part of my strategy. A free 4 up or 5 up cover save was just so amazing on fexes in 4th. I am just starting to think they are not as effective just sitting and shooting anymore.

Im not crying about it, i hate nid zillas! The fact that they used to get a cover save from a little flipping hedge was incredibly lame. I think the changes were neccisary to make an incredibly powerful list a little more toned down.

anybody could run a list with 7 or 8 tough 6 or better multi wound shooting units that had a 4 up save and do well with it. the fact that they have to manuevre a bit now is a good thing in my opinion.

however, now yuo can run them whish mitigates it a lot.

Spif wrote:It is just surprising to see how less resilient they are now in 5th compared to before. Using terrain for shooty fexes was often a part of my strategy. A free 4 up or 5 up cover save was just so amazing on fexes in 4th. I am just starting to think they are not as effective just sitting and shooting anymore.

You can still hide them behind terrain, it is just a little more difficult.

Wait until the players around you start taking less long range AP2/3 weaponry. I've already seen the shift here (Houston, TX) and found that I really don't need much cover for my TMCs anymore. Lascannons, EMLs, Tank-hunting Missile Launchers, etc. don't work as well against tanks and I've slowly seen them phase out of most lists. They have been replaced by meltaguns and meltabombs which are far inferior against TMCs. Folks used to be able to use the same weapons against tanks and TMCs. I don't think that is the case anymore.

I say let them get shot up, save the points on screens, just run multiple dakkaex, more than 3, and a bunch of scuttlers, 7-8 TMCs is still to much to deal with for most armies, especially as people shift to volume of fire, which doesn't work so well vs TMCs...

I also had some luck building a fex phalanx, put the 2+ save ones in the front and the weaker ones behind and move strait up the middle of the board, the ones behind get 4+ saves and the ones up front are tough enough to take it.

PS trouble with long range tanks, take the tyranid artillery, its not bad actually, and it is cheap.

throw in 2 gaunt units, min size with the without number rule.
then you have 2 scoring units / screens that cant die
and move fairly quickly.

JD21290 wrote:throw in 2 gaunt units, min size with the without number rule.
then you have 2 scoring units / screens that cant die
and move fairly quickly.

Don't MCs have to be 50% covered to get saves? I can't see gaunts really being able to screen fexes.

In all fairness though, swarms can give cover to Tyrant guard (and thus the Tyrant) and those could easily cover the MCs themselves.
The real problem with swarms now is the combat resolution rules and the suceptability of rippers to ID. If any model can assualt the rippers and the rest, a LOT of "bonus" saves will be needed.

shrug

kirsanth wrote:In all fairness though, swarms can give cover to Tyrant guard (and thus the Tyrant) and those could easily cover the MCs themselves.

It's debatable whether or not a Hive Tyrant gets a cover save for being part of a unit of Tyrant Guard with cover. He still is a monstrous creature. Otherwise you can get a Necron Tomb Spider with one Scarab swarm getting a 3+ cover save, while the Scarab swarm benefits from T6.

It is not debatable.
The guard are not Monstrous Creatures. Only Monstrous Creatures have the restriction to 50% cover.
The unit is half in cover with even a single Tyrant Guard covering 1% of itself.

RAW > your debate.

kirsanth wrote:It is not debatable.
The guard are not Monstrous Creatures. Only Monstrous Creatures have the restriction to 50% cover.
The unit is half in cover with even a single Tyrant Guard covering 1% of itself.

RAW > your debate.

So you agree that a Monstrous Creature cannot have cover unless its 50% obscured, and then you say that it will get a cover save if 1 Guard is in cover. You seem... confused.

RAWp51 wrote:... for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body ... has to be in cover

A Hive Tyrant and 1 Tyrant Guard take 2 Lascannon wounds. The Guard is in cover, the Hive Tyrant is not. You assign each a wound, does the Tyrant get a cover save?

I've seen this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213892.page
I disagree, this situation is not clearly handled by RAW and should be FAQ'd.

kadun wrote:
It's debatable whether or not a Hive Tyrant gets a cover save for being part of a unit of Tyrant Guard with cover. He still is a monstrous creature. Otherwise you can get a Necron Tomb Spider with one Scarab swarm getting a 3+ cover save, while the Scarab swarm benefits from T6.

It really isn't debatable from a RAW perspective. I agree that especially with the Tomb Spyder/single Scarab base the rules do create an odd situation, but it isn't unclear from the actual rules.

Whether or not one model in the unit (the Monstrous Creature) is or isn't in cover is immaterial. It is only whether at least half the models in the unit are in cover or not. If they are, the unit gets a cover save.


And FYI, in the Scarab/Tomb Spyder situation, the Tomb Spyder does not get the +1 cover save bonus per the Necron FAQ.

I would say majority rules with units and cover, the majority of the unit is in cover and only wounds allocated to the hive tyrant I will say will not get cover though by that time the tyrant guard are dead.

thehod wrote:I would say majority rules with units and cover, the majority of the unit is in cover and only wounds allocated to the hive tyrant I will say will not get cover though by that time the tyrant guard are dead.

You can say whatever you like. You are wrong about the rules though. First off the Tyrant cannot be targeted as MC. Second, the unit is in cover when shot giving the unit a cover save.

You can say only part of the unit gets cover, or say part of the unit is not in cover so wound allocated there do not get saves. You would be wrong. No codex is needed to prove that.