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Hey everyone, my local group is starting up an Escalation League for 40k, and I will be running Tyranids. I'm still a relative newbie to the game, so any advice is greatly appreciated. I've tried to make a well balanced yet effective list at 750 points, which is the first benchmark, while also building a solid foundation on which to build on. I don't have much experience, so I'm going off of theory mostly, so like I said, all advice is appreciated.

UPDATE 11/12 Here are 3 prospective lists I've worked out. The second one is 751, but I don't know what to cut.

1 Hive Tyrant, VC + BS, TS, ES, Shadow in the Warp -167
8 Spinegaunts, Without Number - 64
8 Genestealers, Scuttlers - 152
8 Genestealers, Tendrils - 136
2 Dakkafex - 226
Total:745

1 Hive Tyrant VC+BS, TS, ES - 157
8 Spinegaunts, Without Number - 64
8 Genestealers, Scuttlers - 152
8 Genestealers, Scuttlers - 152
2 Dakkafex - 226
Total: 751 (gak)

1 Hive Tyrant VC+BS, TS, ES - 157
8 Spinegaunts, Without Number - 64
8 Genestealers, Tendrils - 136
8 Genestealers - 128
1 Dakkafex - 113
1 Sniperfex - 148


I welcome all constructive criticism! If it helps, from what I know, others in the league will be Daemons, 2 Space Marines, Chaos, IG, Tyranids, Orks

I'll try to answer any questions. Thanks!!

2 HQ in 750 points seems like a little overkill, might want to take more troops or some warriors since they will give you synapse and more shooting or assault

Yeah, I was kinda thinking about that. I've played a few times in the past, and the times that I did, I was incredibly underwhelmed by the Warriors. Besides being a synapse creature, what are they great for? Forgive me if I am ignorant to something about them that makes them super sweet.

What should I axe? The Broodlord and retinue or the hive Tyrant? Is Shadow of the Warp nessecary? (I'm terrified of getting worked over by Lash of Submission, and this seems to be the only thing Tyranids have against it.)

I haven't really played my bugs much in 5th, but when I ran em I would run em 1 of 2 ways, either with ST and death spitters, maybe with a Venomcannon in there or as an assault element with leaping and ST, RC, warriors do tend to get targeted early but the way I played was overwhelm my opponent with choices/ targets to ensure something that was good would get in, your call on what to drop, im honestly not sure which one is going to work out better for you

how big is the table going to be? if you are going to play on a 4x4 then your find, as long as KP's arnt involved. looks fine to be, very strong CC nid list

Warriors are made for putting Toxin Sacs and Deathspitters on. 24" S6 Blast templates are nice.

In a 750pt game like this, I'd probably leave the Broodlord at home along with those Warriors. Points are better spent on either another Carnifex or more Genestealers.

Why Shadow in the Warp? Plan on fighting a bunch of psykers? Assuming you are fighting a bunch of psykers, it's nice. It can make Eldar or Chaos players who rely on psychic powers a little wary.

At 750 points you can be a little more cost effective in certain areas.

Tyrant: Cannon, Strangler, Toxin Sacs, Enhanced Senses, Shadow in the Warp - 167
8x Spinegaunts: Without Number - 64
8x Genestealers: Scuttling - 152
8x Genestealers: Feeder Tendrils - 136
Dakkafex: 113
Dakkafex: 113

Total: 745

Three Monstrous Creatures, 16 Genestealers with half coming in on the side, and 8 immortal annoyances to screen Genestealers and generally get in the way, or just claim a back objective. You could drop Without Number if you wanted more Gaunts or more points in general elsewhere.

Kirbinator wrote:Warriors are made for putting Toxin Sacs and Deathspitters on. 24" S6 Blast templates are nice.

In a 750pt game like this, though, I'd probably leave the Broodlord at home along with those Warriors. Points are better spend on either another Carnifex or more Genestealers.

Why Shadow in the Warp? Plan on fighting a bunch of psykers? Assuming you are fighting a bunch of psykers, it's nice. It can make Eldar or Chaos players who rely on psychic powers a little wary.

At 750 points, though, you can be a little more cost effective in certain areas.

Tyrant: Cannon, Strangler, Toxin Sacs, Enhanced Senses, Shadow in the Warp - 167
8x Spinegaunts: Without Number - 64
8x Genestealers: Scuttling - 152
8x Genestealers: Feeder Tendrils - 136
Dakkafex: 113
Dakkafex: 113

Total: 745

Three Monstrous Creatures, 16 Genestealers with half coming in on the side, and 8 immortal annoyances to screen Genestealers and generally get in the way, or just claim a back objective. You could drop Without Number if you wanted more Gaunts or more points in general elsewhere.

I like this list a lot more than the first one. But I can't help but feel Shadow in the Warp is completely useless. I've had it used on me in 3 different nid lists and every time I got all my Lashes off without a hitch. I really worked over some peeps that way. They were lured into a false sense of security with their Shadow but then they find it is no use as I seamlessly pull anything I want anywhere I want. The thing that I think people actually fear are the Dakkafex. It can really destroy squads with it's firepower.

Shadow in the Warp is indeed a tad useless, I pretty much never take it. When it works it's nice, kind of like pinning tests. But much like pinning tests, it's not really something that can be relied upon consistently. I'd probably drop it for 15 points, along with feeder tendrils on the Genestealers for a total of 28 spare points, and give those same Genestealers Scuttling to come up to 746 points overall.

Alternatively, you can keep the Tendril Stealers as is, drop Shadow in the Warp to give your Scuttling Genestealers Flesh Hooks since whatever they assault from the sidelines will likely be in cover. This gives you 12 points left to play with, 36 if you also drop Without Number on the Gaunts. Depending if you're playing kill missions or objective ones as well will determine whether or not you want to drop Without Number to put points elsewhere. 8 respawning Gaunts is a great way to hold a back objective, but won't accomplish much of anything in a kill point game.

5 TW... 185 pts 4 S6 Blast templates and 1 S4 Lg Blast...
10 W in synapse gives great coverage across the board.
Just not the CC monster a Tyrant is.

Alternative to dakka fex... Barbed strangler and talons.
1 S8 large blast and 3 CC attacks. At lower points, a good mix. Bonus is the blast always hits it is just how far it scatters...

Another possible would be zoanthrope w Synapse and warp blast. 65 pts gets you a tough to kill synapse and the nice AT shot if you need it.

Your revised list is pretty good though.. These are just options... like maybe 1 dakkafex and one stranglerfex.
Same points... two answers to the same problem.

I don't think he revised the list; those are suggestions posted by other people.

I would definitely advise Against taking 2 carnifexes (of any variety) at 750 points, unless you want your opponents to tool up similarly. It's not balanced at all... in a list that small you wouldn't see two of those huge beasties. It'd be like taking two wraithlords in a 750 point eldar list...

I liked your original list better than the ones posted later... although as mentioned, two HQs is also a bit much at 750 points. How about dropping the tyrant and bumping up the size of the GS retinue by a few, and then adding a squad of warriors for synapse and tooled for either shooting or cc like suggested above?

Thank you all for your replies thus far! I will post a revised list when I get home from work tonight.

We will definitely be playing with VP instead of KP.

We don't start until like, January, so we haven't fleshed out scenarios and such.

What is the disadvantage to taking two Carnifex's, RiTides?

I can't quite make out your abbreviations, DaAddict.


I'd also like to kindly ask those of you who know your Chaos Space Marines to have a look over here, my friend Typeline is looking for similar advice for his army for the same escalation league I will be participating in: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222255.page

Thanks!

There really isn't a "problem" with taking two carnifex in a 750pt game, some people just scream cheese or unfair whenever you take obviously good units, especially in regards to Tyranids and their Carnifex. It's not any different than taking two Leman Russ or a Bassilisk and a Russ in a 750 IG, there's not really a reason not to do it other than convincing yourself that you shouldn't do it or merely don't want to do it. Given that you had two Tyrants and a Carnifex in your first list, taking three monstrous creatures doesn't seem to be an issue with you.

Regarding Stranglerfex and Dakkafex mixing, they're both good situationally, I just personally prefer a dakkafex. The S8 large blast with pinning can be great when it hits, just depends on your dice rolls. The Dakkafex is more consistent overall, you'll always get 8 shots, you'll usually get at least 6 hits, and pretty much all of your hits will wound when shooting T5 or less. Furthermore, focusing two Dakkafex on another Monstrous Creature tends to kill it in one or two volleys of fire due to racking up the wounds. A Stranglerfex can only inflict one wound.

One fun thing about the Stranglerfex, those S8 large blasts outright kill multiwound T4 models, and deny all T4 models a Feel No Pain bonus. Three units come to mind here, Ork Nobz, CSM Plague Marines, Space Marine Biker commands with an Apothecary. Oh yeah, in case you fight Necrons, these shots deny any We'll Be Back rolls for basic troops if I remember correctly. The other nice thing about the Barbed Strangler is that it's S8 and can penetrate armor, unlike a Venom Cannon. I wouldn't really count the talons on your Carnifex as a bonus, it's mostly just to save points. With a 36" range S8 Large Blast, you'll be doing a lot of shooting and no running to get up close.

On a more "fluffy" view of the list, Warriors or the Broodlord would make a fluffier HQ choice for a sub-1000pt game, and you likely wouldn't have more than a single monstrous creature. You would also try to play 'nids as a more horde force. To me, Gaunts aren't as cost effective as they need to be to make it worth running a ton of them but a 113pt Carnifex very much is, especially in a small game where I feel every point should count for something.

Overall, it's your list and your army, pick which models and playstyle you like most.

Yeah, I definitely like the idea of 2 fexes, but I didn't have 2 Tyrants in my original list.

I was just asking what he meant by "unbalanced" as I thought it might have been in regards to the general makeup of the army, as in, not enough troop support or whatever.

Kirbinator, you are my hero, please don't stop posting.

And, just because I am a newbie, why does the S8 large blast kill multiwound T4 models and deny them feel no pain?

Dr. EEK! wrote:I didn't have 2 Tyrants in my original list.

Ah, you're right, you didn't. I was thinking of something else entirely.

People's opinions of a blanaced list varies widely. For instance, I feel my 1500 'nid list with 6 Monstrous Creatures is still quite balanced since there are still 27 Genestealers and 16 Gaunts in it, and the point values are very balanced between HQ, Elite, Troop, and Heavy slots. Some people might look at the same list and say I shouldn't bring two tyrants and four carnifex to a 1500 game.

Dr. EEK! wrote:why does the S8 large blast kill multiwound T4 models and deny them feel no pain?

Notice under the Synapse description, it states that it makes models immune to instant death. Instant death is caused when you are hit by an attack that at least doubles your toughness. For instance, Ork Nobz are T4 with two wounds. If you hit them with a S8 shot, they die from that one wound, it's as if you blew them apart. If they have a Painboy with them, they get the Feel No Pain rule that states you can ignore wounds if you roll a 4+. Under that same description, though, it says that wounds that would cause instant death are not subject to Feel No Pain saves. Same goes for things like Space Marine Captains, T4 with three wounds. If they fail their armor save from a Strangler blast, they die outright. This is why you need to be careful with your wound allocations, you can potentially kill important characters that would normally be hidden behind a wall of wounds.

Important thing about the Barbed Strangler: do not forgot to make people roll their pinning tests. A failed leadership roll does happen even to Ld.10 units, and your opponent being stuck for a whole turn tends to be hugely detrimental to their attack plan.

Dr. EEK! wrote:Kirbinator, you are my hero, please don't stop posting.

Just a fellow 'nid player happy to help kill the other lesser species.

I would use Devourer Gaunts instead Spinegaunts. Each Gaunt having 2 shots and re-rolling failed Wounds is better than being twin-linked. Plus, you get 6 more inches of range.

Re-rolling S2 shots isn't really very effective, you'd need 6's to wound Marines. Giving them the Toxin Sacs they need to be somewhat effective at their shooting you're now paying 10 points per Gaunt and can't give them Without Number, not that impressive for their points. I'm personally not a fan.

Kirbinator wrote:Some people might look at the same list and say I shouldn't bring two tyrants and four carnifex to a 1500 game.

Yes I guess I'd be on the other side of that . But seeing as that's where you're coming from, it'd make sense to have 3 of them in a 750 point list. Not really a problem... just not what I like to play, right?

When I said "unbalanced" I meant more "unfair" or "unfluffy", as Kirbinator explained about the tyrant vs. broodlord at 750 points. However, for my 750 point army I'll be taking a tyrant... simply because I don't have broodlord, and all my warriors have wings (and therefore count as fast attack).

Just wanted to point it out, things are posted on forums for opinions, and mine was to leave the second fex at home in favor of more troops and a "more balanced", meaning "fairer" or "fluffier" or whatever

the other potential problem of taking 2 Fexes at 750 is that you don't really have much left to spend elsewhere between 2 fexes and say a tyrant you are close to 450points, leaving only 300 points to buy 2+ troops choices, yeah the fexes and the tyrant are tough but if someong shoots either of them enough they are going to fail saves, beyond that even if your are just doing gaunt squads you really don't have anything to claim an objective with.

At this point I'm pretty much basing everything off of Kirbinator's list. I'll probably take off Shadow to invest in another gaunt or something, but I'm not sure.

How do the feeder tendrils usually play out? I've heard them mentioned, but never actually seen them play out. Flesh hooks are also tempting...

Kirbinator wrote:Re-rolling S2 shots isn't really very effective, you'd need 6's to wound Marines. Giving them the Toxin Sacs they need to be somewhat effective at their shooting you're now paying 10 points per Gaunt and can't give them Without Number, not that impressive for their points. I'm personally not a fan.

It's all about playing numbers with gaunts. You are NEVER going to have a Gaunt facing something where the gaunt is the superior unit, so playing the numbers is the way to go. At least with the devourer you get more range, and far more potential for wounds than spinefists or fleshborers.

I never give them toxin sacs with devourers. I try to make those 6's as much as possible. With re-rolling of failed wounds, you should still be able to get a few.

feeder tendrils give any brood with a model within 2" of the model with FT prefered enemy against whatever you are fighting so you get to re-roll failed to hit rolls against them giving you more hits over all,

I know what tendrils do, I was just curious if anyone more experienced than I might have used them to great success, as I have never seen them in action. If they are worth their points, etc.

Also, I don't have my codex with me, how many points is it to give a gaunt a devourer? Like 4?

Dr. EEK! wrote:I know what tendrils do, I was just curious if anyone more experienced than I might have used them to great success, as I have never seen them in action. If they are worth their points, etc.

Also, I don't have my codex with me, how many points is it to give a gaunt a devourer? Like 4?

3 points for a devourer. 4 if they have Toxin Sacs. So they can't have Without number, but the more effective gaunt makes up for it.

Updated the original post with 3 lists. Hope to have some feedback!

I came up with that second list earlier when looking at how to play with points, but the problem is that there's nothing to cut for that last point, so it's best not to try. Some people might not mind you being a point over, but I consider it common courtesy not to do so. To be legal with that list you'd have to drop either a Tyrant upgrade or a Genestealer, both of which are painful to lose.

Actually, that's not entirely true. You could drop a Dakkafex and run a Carnifex with a Barbed Strangler and Rending Claws for 749 total. Ha! I probably wouldn't, though...

I have a question, are you predetermined on your missions? As in, do you know for sure what the winning objective is? If it's "Kill the other person" guaranteed then you can drop the Without Number to put points elsewhere since bringing back Gaunts won't benefit you at all.

Dr. EEK! wrote:I know what tendrils do, I was just curious if anyone more experienced than I might have used them to great success, as I have never seen them in action. If they are worth their points, etc.

Feeder Tendrils are well worth their points. For only one point per model you make a group of 8 Genestealers about as effective as a group of 10-11 as far as landing hits is concerned. One time you might not want to take them, though, is with Scuttlers since they tend to assault things in cover after infiltrating. Missing a few more attacks is much better than not swinging first for them. However, that's when a little forethought of Deep Striking a Lictor into a unit before you scuttle assault them comes into play so you get both bonuses.

The guys are working on 6 scenarios that will be chosen at random each round. Some will be VP based, some will be objective based, etc. I'm not really sure, so I'm trying to have most of my bases covered. I could drop 1 genestealer to make the second list work, I guess. I'm also sad I can't give them flesh hooks. :[ But that can wait until higher points if I want to keep 2 Carnifexes (is this advised?)

Any any thoughts on the first and last list?

I'd run that third list, personally. Having a Sniperfex to accompany the Sniper Tyrant is nice added firepower and having a second Venom Cannon can help shut down vehicles, especially being S10. I don't get enough use from Shadow in the Warp to use it as a permanent fixture to my lists.

If you drop a Genestealer from your second list you can give the others upgrades with your spare points. I mean, that's 18 points you'd have to spare (19 for the Genestealer, -1 for being the one point over). You could actually give all 15 Genestealers Flesh Hooks, or one with Hooks and the other with Tendrils so that if they're near each other, the Hooks squad gets Tendril bonus.

So, I apologize in advance for this dumb question, but aren't Carnifexes (Carnifexi?) subject to instinctive behavior? So, for these lists to be effective, wouldn't both Carnifex have to be clumped together along with the Tyrant and Spinegaunts?

I thought there was a TMC rule somewhere that says they aren't. I always remember playing against Nids players and their Carnifi never being in synapse.

It's not that they aren't subject to instinctive behavior, they very much are. But they're also Ld.10, so it's a pretty rare occasion to fail leadership. Even if you do fail leadership, you can still shoot as normal. In fact, your Sniperfex actually benefit from this since they can get 3+ cover saves and still shoot as normal if you choose for them to Lurk while outside of Synapse.