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Alright first Vanguard then the tyranny of GW. Now I will not publish the entire list verbatim as personally I don't know if that violates some sort of trademark agreement ; and although I do not fear GW I do feel that there would be a legitimate threat of my dog possibly being molested by a employee in reprisal.


Vanguard - 125 points for a 5 man squad with bolt pistols, CC, and the Sergeant instead has a Power Weapon.
The difference in stat of a normal marine is that they have 1 additional attack and a additional point of leadership.
Upgrades : Storm Shield, Plasma Pistols, Power Weapon, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist, single or dual lighting claw, Jump Packs. Their vehicle options are a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod.


Okay first off we establish the base point value for a 10 man squad ; 125 points base then an additional 20 points per model.

10 man squad w/ Close Combat Weapons, Bolt Pistols, Srgwith a Power Weapon ; 225 points

Alright this comes out to 22.5 per model.

Lets look at ability that gives them the ability to assault after they deep strike if they do not run; or shoot. An important thing to note is that this has to be declared before deep strike and that if you scatter and are out of range they do nothing. You also have to pay 10 points for this ability.

Okay so we want to have a unit that has some mobility; we will give them Jump Packs.


per model upgrade has been increased to 32.5 for those keeping track at home.


325 Points.


Well you know I have all of these extra Power Weapons at home and Gee Willickers it would be a absolute shame to let them go to waste and I think I would like to have a Relic Blade because gosh darnit that model does look wicked rad. I think I paint him in my favorite hello kitty colors and post it on coolornot.

Add another 150 points to the squad and 15 points to your model ; do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars.


So now we are at 475 points w/ a cost of 47.5. However we now have a squad that moves 12 inches ; and can assault on a deep strike w/ all power weapons.


Okay let's get into the nut and bolts of it by for comparison looking at other assault units in the codex.


Assault Terminators : 40 points a model, same stats can have either a TH and SS or Dual Lightning Claws; 2+ save 5+ invulnerable.

10 man squad 400 points , does not have the ability to assault after deep strike.

Honour Guard 115 points base for 3 models ; 35 additional points per model. Requires a Chapter Master in order to field Base Cost of a Chapter master is 125.
Same stats ; come with a 2+ save, power weapon.

For a Full ten man squad w/ the inclusion of cost of having a Chapter Master w/ out wargear FYI.

This brings the cost to 48.5 if you divide by ten instead of the 11 models you are going to get for this point cost.

Honour guard do have a transport option , of Rhino, Drop Pod.



Command Squad is probably the best comparison for Vanguard as they are all veterans ( yes the apothecary is as well even though he is not "technically" a veteran he has the same stats"

Base cost for a Command Squad

115 points , no power weapons, no upgrades.

23 points per model.

upgrades : Numerous


Point Comparison and basic Review

Terminator w/ Dual Lightning Claws; 40 points per model , 2+ Save 5+ invulnerable. 10 models 400 points

Vanguard w/ Dual Lightning Claw base no jump pack , 52.5 per model. 10 models 510 points ( remember the sergeant gets a free lightning claw and can purchase one


Terminator w/ TH and SS ; same cost , same cost

Vanguard w/ Th and SS; base model without jump pack ; 67.5 , 675 points for 10 models.

Alright let's look at mobility.

Terminators can move six ; run.
Vanguard can move six; run.

Transport options

Terminators only get Landraiders and it can only carry 6 or 8 with a Crusader.

:(

Vanguard; Jump Packs add 10 points additional to each model , rhino adds 35 base, drop pod adds 35 base


So lets compare 8 LC Terms in a Crusader w/ 8 Vanguard models in a rhino their base vehicle they can get.

8 LC terms 320 points + their Crusader 250 ponts 570 points

8 Vanguard w/ LC w/ Rhino 450 points

Plus and Minuses of Assault Terms
- They're more expensive
- They cannot sweeping advance
+ They're in a goddamn Landraider
+ They're in a goddamn Landraider
+ Can Assault out of the Landraider
Plus and Minuses of Vanguard
+ Less expensive
- Cannot Assault on disembark
- Do not have a 2+ save 5+ invulnerable

Now let's look at TH and SS terms same cost as above ; where as the Vanguard unit not so much

Vanguard w/ 8 models w/ TH and SS w/ Rhino 585 points they come out 15 points more expensive. They now have a 3+ invulnerable.

Now for comparisons sake; Let's look at their special "ability" which requires jump packs.

In the above subtract 35 for the rhino and add 45 points.

A 8 man vanguard w/ jump packs w/o rhino is 495 for LCs, and 630 for 8 models with TH and SS.

points for and against
+/- Can assault after deep strike turn 2 or later
- TH and SS More Expensive than a 8 man terminator squad w/ Landraider
+/ - LC less expensive by a margin of less than 10 percent
- NOT IN A fething LANDRAIDER

Special Abilities

Can assault after deepstrike


Comparison w/ Honour Guard

The only transport available is the same as the Vanguard , Rhino, Drop Pod, Razorback. So let's compare that first

For point purposes we will include the requirement of needing a Chapter Master w/ Base cost of 125 added in to the base cost of Honour guard

10 man honour guard w/ no upgrades and a rhino ( CM including in final cost) 395 + (125) = 520
Of to note is that the upgrades available to a Honour guard squad are Relic Blades, Chapter Banner, Auxillary Grenade Launcher and they also have a Champion who has WS 5 and 3 Attacks

10 man Vanguard w/ Power Weapons + Rhino = 395 points

Minuses and Pluses for Honour Guard
+ 2+ save
+ The whole units base cost is the same as a Vanguard squad if you do not add in the cost of a Chapter Master
- Limited Available Transport options do not allow them to assault quickly
+ Company Champion

Minuses and Pluses for vanguard
- 3 + save
+ Cheaper overall versus a Honour Guard
- No champion

Now for comparisons and point cost perception a base model of a Vanguard versus a Honour guard is that a Honour guard is 39 points per model, where as a Vanguard is 38 points w/ a power weapon and 22.5 without.

Now remember at minimum in order to obtain a Honour guard you must include a chapter master which brings the cost total to 495 points without a transport.

10 Vanguard w/ P. W. and Jump Packs are 460 points

Vanguard kind of win against Honour guard at the same point level as they get a 12 inch move and an assault ability out of deepstrike.


Comparison versus a Command Squad

The command squad is base 115 for 5 models. Adding in an additional cost of minimum of 100 points as it requires a captain to purchase.

4 models may only purchase P. W. so lets compare that cost first; they have numerous transport options and can take bikes.


First base command squad.

215 points minimum no power weapons; that does not include the Captain in the squad.

125 points for a minimum squad of Vanguard.


Now for comparison lets look at equipment. Command squad can purchase P.W. for 4 models so lets compare those costs first

Command Squad 275 points or 27.5 for 4 models with Power Weapons, Captain is including in additional cost

Vanguard 125 base 170 points with power weapons

Now if you do not include the cost of the Captain within the command squad ; you get a squad that is 5 points more expensive than a Vanguard squad and they get Feel No Pain.

Both Squads have the ability to purchase a 12 inch move ( bikes for a command squad) Jump packs for a Vanguard


5 Man vanguard w/ jump packs including 1 power weapon for the Sgt. is going to be 175 points

5 man Command squad w/ bikes is 220 w/ one power weapon add in additional minimum cost of 100 points in order to obtain a squad.


In comparison it is difficult to measure the effectiveness versus a command squad and Vanguard ; ultimately you have to weigh their abilities ; and roles along with special gear. When comparable to shooting though , the command squad has several more options than a Vanguard Squad w/ Added mobility of a Bike.

For Comparability though , both squads can get th and ss ; Vanguard can get jump packs vs. command squads bike. So lets look at that.

5 Command Squad w/ Bikes + TH and Stormshields = 4 available to the unit.
395 points not including the 100 point minimum for a captain.

5 man Vanguard w/ Jump packs, TH and SS ( 4 )
405 points

Minuses and Pluses Command Squad
+ Feel No Pain
- More Expensive overall
+ Able to take a champion w/ WS5
+ Ability to turbo boost w/ bikes
+ Has the purchase ability of more weapons+
+ Toughness 5

Vanguard minuses and pluses
- inability to take anything more powerful pistol wise than plasma
+ point cost is less
- do not have feel no pain
+ do have deepstrike assault




Examination of Heroic Intervention
First let's look at Vanguards special ability and why ultimately its not that great. The thing to look at is cost it adds 10 points to each model. It has an element of chance ; there is only a 50 percent chance you will get the squad on the second turn, they scatter if you scatter out of range of assault you are not allowed to assault. Granted this can be overcome by placing them between units but this is also incredibly dangerous due to the scatter.

Yes the ability works with Locator Beacons ; however that is an added cost in order to pull off this one move and ultimately in h t h they are no stronger than your base marine in receiving a charge.

Consider this the minimum cost for a Locator beacon is 3 Scout bikes w/ Sgt w/ LB comes out a 100 points and is an additional Fast ATtack choice.

At minimum for a Dreadnought you purchase 150 points

Marine Squad in order to have a drop pod has to be a full ten man so 205

Their also reliant on these being placed in a position that is beneficial to them. Face it Drop Pods scatter ; yes you can place them in such a way that there is a reasonable chance that one your enemy just wont move away. The furthest away a enemy has to be is 12 inches from a Drop Pod and Vanguard will not be able to assault. The unit has to be placed Within that 6 inch radius. At most with generous measurments you have a 14 inch circle that you are able to assault from that specific dreadnought.

This also takes into account that the units dont just up and move away as they are going to know you have Vanguard in reserve.




This is really where the Vanguard should be revised. Yes, they have options lots of options for H t H but they are expensive SS not withstanding they cannot change their saves. Which causes them to lose out hugely when you compare them to Terminators, when in comparison to other "assault squads in the codex they come out marginally ahead of command squads and honour guard.


This is without a base upgrade just looking at the entry itself. Compare a 10 man Honour guard squad w/ Banner Relic Blades and inside a Landraider w/ a Chapter Master ; the Vanguard kind of lose out. The same is said of a Command squad.


That's pretty much my thoughts on Vanguard. Ultimately they are cost prohibitive for their role as it can be filled by a better more focused unit that can do their job better.

How do you improve this though ; first cost, they're expensive for what they give you. Theres a couple of things that could have been done but will not be as GW does not revise their codexes. So its kind of pointless to discuss what ifs etc..


Ultimately when compared to other units especially assault terms Vanguard lose out on all points. Simply because of an average MEQ save, the inability to take specialist weapons such as meltaguns, plasma or flamers, and that ultimately their special ability isn't that special considering it can at minimum take place on turn two.


The main focus and problem surrounding Vanguard is that they take up a Fast Attack slot as well. With their cost being higher than normal you will not be able to field as much. In low points under 1500 it's difficult to surround your army around a "core" unit of Vanguard simply because they do not have the staying pattern. Comparably with other units that give you more " bang for your buck.


Fundamental Flaws


Without purchase of a invulnerable which in turn brings their cost up, Your vanguard are going to get countercharged and unfortunately their still only assault marines when it comes to receiving a charge. They only have a 3+ save comparably to other units such as honour guard or command squads which can alter their toughness.


What does this mean though?

It comes down to points possiblly earned ; without being able to consolidate into new combats , destroying smaller "fragile" units with Vanguard only leave you open to more powerful units, Conversely more powerful units are equiped to hand Vanguard.

At a low base cost your throwing a unit away as 5 models without any sort of protection but additional attacks and one guy with a power weapon in the end math wise isn't that great. Conversely taking a 450 point unit and destroying a 120 point guardian squad also isnt that great.

I think you don't quite give the heroic intervention the respect it deserves if used effectively- yes it CAN be random and risky- but there are ways to minimise this risk.

My recent drop-pod assualt marine army uses 2 units of jump-pack vanguard vets- and a scattering of tac squads and various dreads in pods- all the pods have locatior beacons..

By dropping a beacon in on the first turn- i suddenly allow myself to put the remaining reserves exactly where I want them if they fall within that bubble- which can lead to some very nasty close range flamer/melta shots (from my dreads) and some very nice charges from the vanguard- especially if it catches your opponent off guard.

THe added manoverability for them then allows me to mop up the enemy- especially if your sensible about where you assault and consolidate too

So basically they are worth the points if you use them to launch unexpected assaults straight off the deepstrike-
and then keep using that manouverability to pick your fights-

something that none of the other units you gave as examples can do

Ultimately your relying on chance to win; to a degree the game is chance, but ultimately because you have a 50 percent chance of getting them in on a 2nd turn you lose out. They also follow the deepstrike rules meaning there are multiple ways to stop them from coming in.

A very simple tactic is just to kill the locator beacon but that is kind of a failure in tactic.


It is ultimately how you use them; but they are cost prohibitive simply as at minimum you are paying 175 points for a squad that can use that ability.


Applying chance in a strategy is not a strategy it is called gambling.

So, uh, what's your thesis on the Vanguard unit then?

Nurglitch wrote:So, uh, what's your thesis on the Vanguard unit then?

That's pretty much my thoughts on Vanguard. Ultimately they are cost prohibitive for their role as it can be filled by a better more focused unit that can do their job better.

How do you improve this though ; first cost, they're expensive for what they give you. Theres a couple of things that could have been done but will not be as GW does not revise their codexes. So its kind of pointless to discuss what ifs etc..


Ultimately when compared to other units especially assault terms Vanguard lose out on all points. Simply because of an average MEQ save, the inablity to take specialist weapons such as melta guns, plasma or flamers, and that ultimately their special ability isnt that special considering it can at minimum take place on turn two.

Well, just as a brainstorming exercise I'm thinking combos, like what if you combined a unit of Vanguard with Tigurius.

Re-rolling those reserve rolls seems handy when the most effective use of Vanguard depends on them turning up sooner rather than later.

Given the variety of Vanguard that you can produce by allocating various (expensive) pieces of kit, it seems like a good way of (ab)using the wound allocation rules for complex units.

Finally, their ability to drop down and assault any unit on the board seems like it would make them a great unit for splashing any of those units that would make a Space Marine's life very hard, such as Sorcerers with the Lash of Submission, or Ork Lootas, or Tau Broadsides and Hammerheads, and so on.

Their ability to execute sweeping advances, and to execute consecutive assaults within 18" where Terminators can only manage one, seems handy as well. Being able to hit a unit of Ork boyz first, whip them, sweep them, and assault another unit next turn just strikes me as handy.

I think to look at any unit it needs to be looked at in the synergy fo the rest of the army. I could see vanguard beign usefull in an all drpo pod army.

You have your army defplyed close by, rapid fireing away, but also within assault range. Having the chance of a hard hitting HtH unit coming in is always going to help.

On the other hand if you're playing a SAFH then they'll be less useful.

It depends on their role their usefullness.

I think the comparisons list above are a bit off, in reguards to the command & honour guard squads because you Must field a hq and they can easily be the pre-requisite 100-125pt model and invariably they cost more anyways.. but the point is its too simple to simply offset the cost of the HQ against the total cost of the insular vanguard sqaud.

Power weapon & a bolt pistol. Cheap, fight at I4 (which is what you really want to do with a 3+ save) with massed attacks and you only pay once for the pleasure.

A larger squad will give you a bigger footprint which means a) your more susceptible to blast weapons & templates and b) youve got a larger threat range for that herioc attack.

A locator beacons on drop-pods is good but its really not that an amazing tactic to use with herioc intervention. Using it with deep-striking speeders & Gating libarians you can quite happily place that podding dred or tactical squad at range where-as needing to place the pod within 12-13" of an enemy unit (and hope it doesnt move) is much more iffy.

If I see a locator beacon I will either shoot it if ive got spare AT fire or/and I will move units either away from it or simply assault it. (that 6" radius becomes a killzone as troops deep-striking via jump packs will, im sure, base/within 1" a few of my models meaning mishap time & no heroic assault.)

Your also simply displacing the unpredictable chance of scattering onto the drop-pod although with more favourable outcomes.. if you scatter away outside of threat range that locator beacon is now usefull for risk-free asaults. Although granted its denying that area but it seems a pretty expensive way to do it.
.
Locator beacons on scout bikes is another matter. Looking at the unit with its rules, equipement and capabilities it seems to me it could work alot more effectively with vanguard vets specifically. For starters they can actually assault a unit. Another thing; they could combat squad & have the sacrafical squad tie up the target enemy unit for a turn while keep the beacon close.. etc etc..

The less you give them, the better they become (well, sort of). 10 naked Vanguard cost 225 points and will throw 40 dice at WS/I 4 with one power weapon model.

And in my opinion, that's as good as it gets. I think you did a good job stating the ridiculous Point Per Model inflation that you go through when trying to make Vanguard "crazy good".

Vanguard are a crappy Khorne Berzerker, and that's all they'll ever be without gutting your force org chart.

I have to agree ; at most for jump packs and the xtra attack they are not point cost effective.


Per the adding of the Command HQ ; yes I realize and put that in the formulae for what they are. You do have to consider for Honour Guard and for a Command squad you need a captain so it does add to a base cost of model ; but also you have to consider that both of these characters will probably be with that unit so that unit will be somewhat stronger.


As for Scout Bikers ; the unfortunate thing is that Vanguard are Fast Attack.

Why would this be important?


Because you can have 2 squads at most and one scout bike squad.

Now the tactic of assaulting first turn with a Scout Bike squad and using Vangaurd as back up?

Why not instead just take two Scout bike squads its going to run you the same cost as 1 vanguard squad and give you 20 models with tougnness 5.


That said I think it is a valid tactic.

Another thing to consider

Vanguard come out to 325 points with jump packs which is 32.5 per model.

A regular base Assault Marine w/ Jump pack is 19 points a model. Or a 58 percent increase in cost.

You could take 10 Vangaurd w/ all power weapons for 475 points

Or take 2 10 man Assault squads w/ P. F. and 3 plasma pistols.

Flamers... flamers are just much better.

I agree completely I was just maxing points.

The question: are Sternguard better to bring in pretty much every case?

Way better anti-tank.

Landing close enough to shoot relies on less luck than landing close enough to melee.

Did someone say Ap3 rapid fire shells?

Edit: Personally, the only reason I think I might take vanguard would be if I had spare points, spare fast attack slots, and was full on elites and heavies already.

It's not really a good comparison to make with Vanguard vs. Sternguard really theyr'e completely different. Although Sterngaurd are way and above the better unit all around.

Hollismason wrote:It's not really a good comparison to make with Vanguard vs. Sternguard really theyr'e completely different. Although Sterngaurd are way and above the better unit all around.

Well, it's pretty fair to compare any two units which can fulfill the same role.

If say, they both deep strike into the rear or heart of the enemy and inflict as much damage as possible.

I'm not sure what (if any) job vanguard do that sterns can't knock out.

If we were comparing Plague Marines vs. Noise Marines vs. Berserkers, THEN it'd be fair to say "they're completely different and have different jobs"
Plague marines are tough as nails (vanguard and stern have same defensive ability.) Grounding-holding capacity.
Noise marines have I5 and can take lots of good shooty power guns, shoot with them and assault in same turn. Anti-horde capacity.
Berserkers when they charge are pure win for the turn, S5 and I5, w/ a 4-attacks S9 powerfist madman. Anti-hordes and able to smash tanks. But less defensive and shooty and holding power.

Vans with jetpacks are going to drop down, if they get lucky and land next to an enemy, attack it, possibly win, possibly get their butt kicked or get quagmired. Then on your opponent's turn, he can counter-charge or gun your vanguard down if A) they didn't drop close enough B) They dropped on something like an IG squad and wiped it out C) They scattered onto some melee monster like a CC dread and had to retreat.

Stern have a much lower chance of dropping in the wrong place and then staring at a Defiler's ordinance cannon a few inches away, unable to do anything.

Not really ; Sternguard have numerous advantages over Vanguard; in the shooting category, but on is a dedicated shooting unit. One is a Dedicated Assault unit.


As a dedicated assault unit I feel that Vanguard fail on that point as they are to expensive and need the help of other units in order to "fulfill" the potential of their heroic intervention special ability.

For their price they should AT LEAST be self suffficient.

Risking a 3-400 point unit on a deep strike result is bad generalship whether it works or not.

Not if you have locator beacons in place.

G

They STILL arent self sufficient. Locator beacons are fine and dandy, until someone destroys them or flys a Landspeeder storm close to them.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Not if you have locator beacons in place.

G

Although, it must be noted. Deep Striking happens at the start of the turn, meaning the locator beacon has to be there at the start of the turn.

So your enemy has to allow your scout bike squad or whatever to drive up right into his field. The enemy also knows that the beacon means the deep strikers (if they don't do the random drift thing) will appear right on those bikers. The enemy could back away any units within assault range of a beacon and aim his big guns there. Or he could just kill the bikers and the beacon goes away.

If a beacon is a requirement for Vanguard to be effective, that'd be another nail in their coffin.

To add even a 4-man scout bikers to kamikaze into enemy territory to call down vanguard adds 115 or more points to the unit. And your vanguard still won't be assaulting the turn they come into play if the enemy moves any units too close to the beacon back.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Not if you have locator beacons in place.

G

Although, it must be noted. Deep Striking happens at the start of the turn, meaning the locator beacon has to be there at the start of the turn.

So your enemy has to allow your scout bike squad or whatever to drive up right into his field. The enemy also knows that the beacon means the deep strikers (if they don't do the random drift thing) will appear right on those bikers. The enemy could back away any units within assault range of a beacon and aim his big guns there. Or he could just kill the bikers and the beacon goes away.

If a beacon is a requirement for Vanguard to be effective, that'd be another nail in their coffin.

To add even a 4-man scout bikers to kamikaze into enemy territory to call down vanguard adds 115 or more points to the unit. And your vanguard still won't be assaulting the turn they come into play if the enemy moves any units too close to the beacon back.

Just had an Idea - when you declare your herioc intervention, you still deep-strike then charge in the normal phases SO therefore a locator beacon scout squad could be used to as an assault unit :- To force the opponent to defenders react towards the vanguard vets.

The when it comes round to the vets go at assaults there could be that much more of a chance to assault. As the bikes has a 12" move (which will happen after the deep-strike via the beacon) which can be used to set up the most effecient way to draw an enemy towards you, with a 6" charge.

People using drop-pod locator beacons for vanguards arent totally on the ball.

Scout bikers are a pretty good in general and I'd rather take them over Vanguard to begin with. That said.


A small 4 man scout squad is not going to last long against a countercharge regardless of what army you are playing against.

I think the pitfall most people fall into is 4th ed. thinking. It's just soo tempting to make Vanguard into CC beasts so they massacre any unit they charge. The problem is that in 5th ed it leaves them out in the breeze after that unit breaks.
As far as upgrades I'd add jump packs, a relic blade+storm shield to the sarge, then maybe a powerfist+storm shield elsewhere and a few melta bombs for targets of opportunity with whatever spare points there are.
Sure, they're still expensive, but less than if I gave everyone a power weapon and plasma pistol or other goodies. That way you can use the differing equipment to keep those two models in the unit better when enemy shooting comes and you have 1 weapon that ID's guard and eldar, 1 that ID's marines and necrons. You also have plenty of normal attacks to thin out horde units and you have 2 weapons that provide a valid threat to MCs, one of which still strikes at I both have 3+ invulnerable saves, affording them some protection from AP3, power weapons and MCs.
Also, from a mathhammer stand point, this unit will still cause heavy casualties on the charge versus most infantry units, but not to the point that your opponent needs snake eyes just to stay. Which is what you want them to do until the next round of combat where (if you managed things right) they won't have counter charged you into oblivion and you hopefully break the unit so at the start of your next turn you can jump pack up to the next unit. It's still somewhat hit or miss, but at least you aren't dedicating 400 pts to what amounts to a suicide charge.

It's the reason that units like Honour Guard an Terms come out a head as if they do just massacre a unit they at least have some sort of protection against shooting during the enemies phase.

that is true.. personally I just don't LIKE Honour Guard, something about their options and appearance just rub me wrong, but Terminators I do like and do use, although they lack the mobility jump infantry enjoy.

Just had an Idea - when you declare your herioc intervention, you still deep-strike then charge in the normal phases SO therefore a locator beacon scout squad could be used to as an assault unit :- To force the opponent to defenders react towards the vanguard vets.

Doesn't work -- defender react moves happens after ALL assault moves are made. In fact, there's a good chance the scout bikes keep the vanguard from charging by clogging up the models it can reach.

I think the original post is overly long. It isn't nearly that complicated. You are paying premium points for heroic intervention. Everything else about them are done better elsewhere. Heroic intervention is risky without beacons and beacons are easily neutralized in a couple of turns.

I am still interested in a tiggy + vanguard army and if I had the motivation to finish painting and updating my current armies I'd try it. Not top tier by any means but could be fun.

Hollismason wrote:
That's pretty much my thoughts on Vanguard. Ultimately they are cost prohibitive for their role as it can be filled by a better more focused unit that can do their job better.

Par for the course. Look at Flash Gitz in the ork codex...

Deadshane1 wrote:
For their price they should AT LEAST be self suffficient.

Risking a 3-400 point unit on a deep strike result is bad generalship whether it works or not.

You must not like daemons