First time Space Marine general - 500 escalating league list - Help wanted.

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**keezus**

H'ok. Starts at 500 with 250 add ons until 1500. Please keep this in mind - as I'm trying to stay as flexible as possible. No telling what I'll be up against.

Starting point: 495

Chaplain
10x Marines, ML, Flamer, Combiflamer
10x Marines, Lascannon, Meltagun, P-fist.

First upgrade: 720

5x Terminators w/ Cyclone

Second upgrade: 995

10x Marines, ML, Flamer, Combiflamer
Whirlwind

Third upgrade: 1205
10x Marines, Lascannon, Melta, P-Fist

Fourth upgrade: 1500
10x Marines, Lascannon, Melta, P-Fist
Whirlwind

Suggestions?

-Edit 1: A librarian is probably better as an HQ, but I've only got a chaplain at the moment - might swap if the organizers alow it.

**Gornall**

At 500: PF should go in the flamer heavy tactical squad IMO. I'd also probably just use a ML instead of a lascannon.

At 750: Dropping the Lascannon allows you to pickup a Rhino or Razorback for one of your tactical squads.

Overall, I think you've got too many tactial Marines and not enough killing power. You need more transports for sure and something killy either from heavy support, fast attack, or elites.

Chappies are only really awesome when running with something that is going to be doing a lot of charging, so footslogging with him is NOT the best option. A Librarian would probably be a much better purchase like you said.

**keezus**

I had considered doing the combi-flamer powerfist thing, but the poor sarge will look positively ridiculous trying to carry all that gear. I converted a combi-flamer and the the only way it looks proper is if it is carried 2 handed... so I ended up sacrificing some utility for appearance.

What do you recommend as stuff that is more killy?

While Assault Terminators are very choppy, they make the inclusion of a Landraider almost mandatory, resulting in a very expensive squad which takes up 1/3 of my points.

There is going to be at least one nidzilla army in this league - possibly 2. Is it safe to drop the lascannons? I'm not sold on MLs vs TMCs with extra carapace and AV14 vehicles.

**cmagee79**

I've heard many players sing the praises of the Thunderfire Cannon. That could be a fine option, especially against Horde style armies. Honestly thinking of picking one up myself.

**Gornall**

I wouldn't drop all the Lascannons, just the first one so you can have a transport at the 750 range. Sternguard would be great additions, especially if given a transport. The Thunderfire is an interesting idea as I've also hear a lot of people bragging on them. Other options include attack bikes for anti-tank/dakka or Vindicator for good, all-around pie plate carnage. As it stands now, you have 5 tacticals that are footslogging, making it hard to kill anything beyond 12-24 inches out. You need mobility and firepower.

**mullhead**

Meltas=Awesomeness 2d6 pentration at half range +1 on vehicle damage charts meaning a melta can wreck AV14 on a glance unlike lascannons.

**keezus**

mullhead: I did consider multimeltas, but only for the "free" aspect. I ended up ruling against them for the following reasons:

Meltagun: effective range: 18", 6" move and 12" shot - effective 2D6 range: 12", 6" move and 6" shot.

Multimelta: effective range: 24" stand and 24" shot. Effetive 2D6 range: 12".

So technically, as they have the same strength, you are only giving up 6" S8 range by using a meltagun instead of a multi-melta.

VS. a Lascannon, the multi-melta only wins as the more effective weapon within its 12" 2D6 zone, and against AV10 at 12" to 24". Against AV14 in the 12" to 24" zone - the same 6 rolled will net a penetration for the lascannon vs. a glance for the multi-melta. The lascannon has a better chance to breach armor in all other cases and also outranges the multimelta by 24". I am not sure if it is worth giving up 50% range to gain 10 points and a 12" super-kill-zone.

I did wrestle a lot with heavy weapons loadouts. Plasmacannons were very attractive, though I ultimately decided not to use them as S7 lacks reliable stopping power against anything AV12 even though the AP2 savages most infantry. Multimeltas to me, are just too limited. If they were assault 1 (or blast), I'd gladly pay 20 points to put one in a squad. At present, they don't have any place on static troops.

**Gornall**

MMs on fast units like attack bikes = dead tanks. As for your Sgt models, switch the combi flamer guy with the PF then. That way you'll have flamer/PF unit and a more ranged unit that can flame if needed.

**keezus**

What about multimeltas on razorbacks? IIRC, this is an option.

**Prophet of Dakka**

I suggest you not going for Lascannons in at 500pts. Go for the missile launchers. It'll work for MEQs and non-MEQs and you'll still have something to pop light vehicles with. I'd also suggest you to take at least 1 melta bomb, on HQ for example.

**Gornall**

Unfortunately not an option. TL HB or even TL Assault Cannon are the way to go on Razorbacks IMO. FYI: Mathhammer gives an edge to the TLAC over TLLC against all targets I think. The only issue is the shorter range. Speeders and bikes are the platform of choice for meltas.

**keezus**

Revised list:

Initial 500
Librarian
Tactical 1 - ML/Flamer
Tactical 2 - ML/Flamer
Rhino
Rhino

Upgrade to 730
Terminators w/ Cyclone

Upgrade to 995
Tactical 3 w/ Lascannon, Powerfist
Attack Bike w/ Multimelta
Add combiflamer to Tactical 1

Upgrade to 1250
Tactical 4 w/ Lascannon, Powerfist
Attack Bike w/ Multimelta

Upgrade to 1490
Whirlwind
Whirlwind
Meltagun for Tactical 3
Meltagun for Tactical 4
Combiflamer for Tactical 2
Terminator for terminator squad

Armory Summary
AT
2x Lascannon
2x Missile Launcher
1x Cyclone ML
2x Multimelta
2x Meltagun
AP
2x Flamer
2x Combiflamer
2x Whirlwind

KP: 12

**Gornall**

You've got too many tacticals too early. 3 tactical squads at 1000 with only termy support is going to make it hard to kill anything. Maybe switch up the ordering of the tacticals to get the WWs in there earlier. 4 tacticals overall still might be a bit much at 1500 (general rule of thumb is 1 troop for every 500 points), but that's something you'll have to work with to see if you like it.

**deadly chicken**

sigh. why do people think that attack bikes are good? for 70 points ypu can get a landspeeder with 2 mm's. whirlwinds look cool and the idea is great but preds perfom much better for the price. also if you want AT and AP i'd go for vindi's, they are just solid awesomeness.

**Fearspect**

I have to agree:

Predators over Whirlwinds, Land Speeders over Bikes.

If you can fit two of each at 1500 points, you'll be laughing. Try to phase one of these in at least for each points jump.

Also, I don't really feel like the terminators fit anymore now that you are using rhinos. Try dreadnoughts marching behind your armour?