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Does hatred give Dark Elf crossbowen enough of a chance in close combat that it's worth taking shields for them? For some ranged units the answer is always no - shields are a waste. For others, yes, they're always worth it - Dwarf Thunderers. Where do Dark Elf crossbowmen fall?

I'd say yes. They have the best save for all of our core choices and when they get into combat it'll be worth the point per model.

Nay, if they get in combat you already failed. They can't beat anything, so why bother? Vs other armies shooting, a 5+ isn't as good as having more bodies. You won't get the full bonus often enough, because of strength and/or armor piercing. Plus they are cheap, why spend more on a good sacrifice unit?

It is possible to take a big unit of them, 2 ranks 10 wide for instance, and park them on a hill with full command. If you might get charged you narrow ranks by 5, going to 5x4. 5 static combat res isn't bad really, esp from a shooting unit. Since its unlikely you will kill much, even with hatred, preserving your static res is important. In this configuration, shields are worth it. The question is: Is this configuration playing to the strengths of the list? Elves have great specialized units, why make a generalist unit that costs a bit much and doesn't do either task as well?

Of course, give them shields if your going to use them as Notabot has suggested. Otherwise, yes, they're usually a waste.

srry bout that.

I wouldn't bother.

They are there to shoot. Don't try and make them a combat unit.

No!

Archers of any kind should never get any upgrades. I don't even give them command. What is the point except to waste points. The ONLY way I would give shields to crossbowmen would be if I needed to add 10 points and I had absolutly nothing else to spend them on.

I think it's a bit dismissive to say that a unit of xbowmen will never see combat. There are lots cheap flyer-type units which can charge turn 2 without you being able to do anything about it. I would never form them into a combat formation, but just by increasing their close combat save to 4+ you give yourself a much better chance at avoiding casualties from those fast, not-too-good at fighting skirmisher or flyer units that often hunt ranged units. From years of playing against Dwarfs with my Skaven, I learned to leave their thunderers alone. I have to dedicate a ranked unit to fight them - my skirmishers just couldn't get it done. We're talking about a 10 point upgrade for a unit. It's not exactly a huge investment.

Its not a huge investment once, but do it twice, and add in other useless upgrades newer players tend to do, and it adds up to entire units of wasted points. If your opponent has cheap flyer units like you say, guess what gets shot at first. None of the common fliers are exactly tough to kill with shooting. These aren't dwarves, who are tough in addition to having the option of a worthwhile save. If they get charged, flee. Or if fleeing will kill you stand and shoot if possible, if you can't do either one of these, your guys will die, so be it. its a 100 point distraction anyways.

The Crippler wrote:Does hatred give Dark Elf crossbowen enough of a chance in close combat that it's worth taking shields for them? For some ranged units the answer is always no - shields are a waste. For others, yes, they're always worth it - Dwarf Thunderers. Where do Dark Elf crossbowmen fall?

I think the shields are usually worth it, especially as delf xbowmen can work very well as a mixed combat/shooting unit (15-20,fc,shields) if comboed with at least one good anvil unit such as black guard. If you want purely min.sized support units, it's a place to save up some points in skipping them.

notabot187 wrote:Its not a huge investment once, but do it twice, and add in other useless upgrades newer players tend to do, and it adds up to entire units of wasted points. If your opponent has cheap flyer units like you say, guess what gets shot at first. None of the common fliers are exactly tough to kill with shooting. These aren't dwarves, who are tough in addition to having the option of a worthwhile save. If they get charged, flee. Or if fleeing will kill you stand and shoot if possible, if you can't do either one of these, your guys will die, so be it. its a 100 point distraction anyways.

It's not that they're tough to kill with shooting, it's that it's more advantageous for me to shoot at something else and then beat them when they charge me. I don't lose a turn of shooting that way. It doesn't have to be just flyers. Let's say a unit of scouting skirmishers is behind my lines turn 1. A close combat scouting unit, such as gutter runners, would wreck a unit of dark elf crossbowmen. I could turn my x-bowmen around and shoot them, suffering a -3 to hit. Chances are they'd still be around. Even after they're dealt with, I still have to turn back around again and etc. Instead, I could have just fired at whatever I wanted to, then dealt with skirmishers in close combat (4+ armour save + hatred vs. no armour save = win) after THEY charged ME and then gone right back to firing as normal next turn with no disruption. Perhaps my example is too specific and not applicable over the larger population.

BTW - I asked the question, so I appreciate the responses. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate.

Aren't ranged units meant to take out support units? 2-3 kills means nothing to a main body unit. It can cripple a support unit. Turn 1 you are unlikely to hurt much because of the range penalties, might as well shoot at something with low unit strength, that also might have flown near you. Its much better to kill an enemy 1 unit at a time. Since you can't kill the big blocks turn 1, its worth knocking out flankers, flyers, and fast cav.

Your gutter runner example is a bit poor. If they take a unit big enough to beat a unit of xbowment (btw, on average you will need more than the min size unit) they spent as much or more points on the unit. Since scouts are meant to be the counter unit to shooting, they are supposed to win vs xbowmen. (and yet barely do point for point, at least vs DE) The answer isn't to spend more points on xbowmen, it is to take a unit that actually counters the counter. (magic missiles, or a counter assault unit of some sort.)