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How many kill points does a thunderfire cannon give up?

The way I've been playing it is that in order to recieve 1 kill point for the unit you must kill the techmarine gunner. The reason is that you must fully destroy the unit to obtain a killpoint. The cannon is an artillary piece and not a retinue or attached squad, and the Tech Marine gunner is ot an independent character until the cannon is destroyed. Therefore destroying the cannon not generate a seperate kill point and the unit as a whole only gives up 1 killpoint. However, I would like to hear the way other people play it and the reason why.

We play it as 1 KP for both, since they form a Single Unit at the start of the game.

Although, to be honest, the Kill Point rules are an utter mess. I wouldn't be surprised if it did give away 2KP because the techmarine becomes an IC.

The thunderfire cannon(including techmarine) is a single kill point, just as with all artillery (Though this could be different as Gwar pointed out he does go to IC status)

It can only ever give up 1kp. All Artillery units by their very definition on page 5 RB top right hand corner and page 55 first paragraph first sentence under the heading THE UNIT *must* consist of "large weapons and their crew". The only crew a thunderfire cannon has is it's techmarine gunner. So just destroying the cannon would by itself yield nothing because it's crew (which is required) is still alive irregardless of the crew's IC status.

EDIT: and so only by killing the Techmarine would you achieve a kp. Because if the Techmarine dies first, the artillery piece is removed, and if the artillery piece is destroyed first, you still have its crew (techmarine in this case) running around as the other half of the unit.

It is a mess.
The techmarine is an IC. He is accompanied by a unit he cannot leave (ie a 'retinue'). Doesn't matter what type of unit the 'retinue' is, all that matters is it exists. Annihilation says that an IC and retinue are worth 2 KP.

don_mondo wrote:It is a mess.
The techmarine is an IC. He is accompanied by a unit he cannot leave (ie a 'retinue'). Doesn't matter what type of unit the 'retinue' is, all that matters is it exists. Annihilation says that an IC and retinue are worth 2 KP.

eh? the SM codex says absolutely nothing about a retinue. A unit an IC cannot leave is *not* a retinue. For example, Grotsnik cannot leave the ork mob he is in until it is destroyed, does that make it a retinue? Plus you cannot buy a techmarine and *then* buy him a thunderfire cannon. In fact it is it's own unit.

I must apologize Don_mondo, if this is a joke, because I don't get it. And if not....

It is indeed messy. The way we play it is that if the Techmarine and Cannon are killed in the same Turn, then its one KP. But if he survives to go on about his buisness, we make him worth a second one.

Obviously house rules.. but a decent balance over the messyness of the situation.

padixon wrote:

don_mondo wrote:It is a mess.
The techmarine is an IC. He is accompanied by a unit he cannot leave (ie a 'retinue'). Doesn't matter what type of unit the 'retinue' is, all that matters is it exists. Annihilation says that an IC and retinue are worth 2 KP.

eh? the SM codex says absolutely nothing about a retinue. A unit an IC cannot leave is *not* a retinue. For example, Grotsnik cannot leave the ork mob he is in until it is destroyed, does that make it a retinue? Plus you cannot buy a techmarine and *then* buy him a thunderfire cannon. In fact it is it's own unit.

I must apologize Don_mondo, if this is a joke, because I don't get it. And if not....

Yeah, I've heard that argument before. The retinue rules also say, "Some codex books allow you to field characters along with a special unit they can not leave during the game (which is usually called a retinue, bodyguard, or similar)"

This implies that retinues are an entirely separate type of unit and will be designated as such in some way. Not just, "a unit a character can not leave." Because, in all technicality, a sergeant is a character (albeit an upgrade character, but page 48 makes no distinction) and he can not leave his tactical squad. So, according to that interpretation a tactical squad is a retinue.

Marius Xerxes wrote:It is indeed messy. The way we play it is that if the Techmarine and Cannon are killed in the same Turn, then its one KP. But if he survives to go on about his buisness, we make him worth a second one.

Obviously house rules.. but a decent balance over the messyness of the situation.

Oddly enough, thats how the RaW works out IIRC

Gwar! wrote:

Marius Xerxes wrote:It is indeed messy. The way we play it is that if the Techmarine and Cannon are killed in the same Turn, then its one KP. But if he survives to go on about his buisness, we make him worth a second one.

Obviously house rules.. but a decent balance over the messyness of the situation.

Oddly enough, thats how the RaW works out IIRC

Yes, I believe that's technically correct too. Although they wouldn't both have to be killed in the same turn to be worth one kill point, they would have to be killed at the same time. (i.e. a single unit's shooting) because he becomes an IC as soon as the canon is killed.

I also believe that technically that's how my question about tyrant/tyrant guard worked out. Although it's pure silliness.

This is exactly why we use the Victory Point rules instead of KP during our friendly games. Much easier, and more balanced in general.

Before anyone comes back with, "But Kaloran, that's a house rule, and therefor cannot be considered as legal blah blah blah blah blah blah...": I realize that. Hense the use of "friendly" in the paragraph above.

To be quite honest, we use Victory Points instead of Kill points Period in out League and Campaign matches, and use them in objective matches as a tie-breaker.

If you do consider him and cannon to be 2 kps does that mean he can buy wargear off of the tech marine entry? imo it should be worth 1 kp for whole unit because you dont have the option to buy him then the cannon like a you can with a retinue

zombie78 wrote:If you do consider him and cannon to be 2 kps does that mean he can buy wargear off of the tech marine entry? imo it should be worth 1 kp for whole unit because you dont have the option to buy him then the cannon like a you can with a retinue

What I would like to do is buy some servitors to join him and his cannon. Would be really cool if you could have a thunderfire cannon with a bunch of servitors to go with it.

Well you can buy the servitors, you just cannot join the techmarine and Cannon with them, which kind of defeats the whole point of taking servitors.

How can you buy servitors? Where is that option in the Thunderfire Cannon entry?

Page 138, Servitors:
You may include one unit of Servitors for every Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army.
These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance.

It doesn't say "The techmarine from the Elites Slot" it just says Techmarine. The Gunner is a Techmarine so you can buy a unit of servitors.

Gwar! wrote:Page 138, Servitors:
You may include one unit of Servitors for every Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army.
These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance.

It doesn't say "The techmarine from the Elites Slot" it just says Techmarine. The Gunner is a Techmarine so you can buy a unit of servitors.

O I know you can buy them I just want them to join the Techmarine and cannon which they can't. Which makes me a sad panda :insert picture of a sad panda:. The only thing I could do is sit them right beside the TFC and when the cannon goes they automatically join the techmarine then, but they would still have mindlock till then. :insert picture of grumpy old man:

I know servitors aren't that great but I'm a fan of techmarines and their fluff so I like servitors.

Plastic People wrote::insert picture of a sad panda:.

Plastic People wrote: :insert picture of grumpy old man:

Anon Delivers!

Guess I should have rephrased why it was house rules. We give the entire shooting phase to kill them both to be worth one kill point. Its a friendly game, and shooting all takes place at once so why not give the guy a break. Heck you dont even take a Moral test until all shooting at a unit is complete. So even though things happen in sequence in game, end results wait till all sequences are done anyway. But blah.. no reason to defend a house rule!

Competitive play, of course not.

But we do use kill points because as messy as they may be, they are part of the new mission system and might as well get used to them. The more we play with them the more we get used to them and things work out pretty well. Worrying about kill points also does effect army list construction and play style. So its a nice way to mix things up a bit.

I just wanted to add that I don't think the KP system is that much of a 'mess'.

In general, it is pretty simple, works straighforward, and is easy to take into account during army construction.

Yes, there are a few edge cases that cause issues (Nid spore mines, thunder cannons, etc.) but I don't see those as a big stumbling block, nor very common.

So you think a 70 point pair of basic multilaser scout sentinels (keep in mind multiple hits are spread into the squadron so not like you're only hitting one vehicle at a time with those kraks) is worth less than a *scoring/objective-capping* squad of 9 (8+attack bike) SM bikes at over 300 points, even though the later is a Troops choice thanks to having a captain, is FAR more resilient, moves faster and has has about three times the firepower plus a handful of multi-meltas?

Or that it makes sense a 48pt gun drone squadron is worth as much when destroyed as a tricked out 510pt squad of 10 Terminators with chainfists and assault cannons? (and that's not counting the two vehicle-mounted ones being worth just as much)

Or that an army clearing the board of all but a single model of the opponent's while half his army is still alive and well is considered to have taken a crushing defeat in a tourney, because he killed just 4 kp while his opponent killed 6?

Some armies can't HELP but take far more points than the other guy. When your individual squads and vehicles aren't worth as much, and even screwing yourself by grabbing every useless little upgrade just for what you have to be worth more, and you're still 500 points short of the guy with 4 squads and a command unit despite having twice as many KPs already, its hard to see it as anything but an arbitrary mess. Sure its straightforward, but so's slamming a hammer on your hand. Its easy, it works great, but it doesn't mean you won't go to the hospital.

Look at the end of the rulebook, right after the unit stat lists... Victory points are there.
THEY work. An arbitrary second point system tacked on when the game is already balanced on a different one, doesn't.

zombie78 wrote:imo it should be worth 1 kp for whole unit because you dont have the option to buy him then the cannon like a you can with a retinue

And with the soon-to-be obsolete Codex Imperial Guard you don't have the option of taking an Officer without a Command Squad and the yet it's still a retinue. It does not have to be optional to be a retinue.

Gwar! wrote:Page 138, Servitors:
You may include one unit of Servitors for every Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army.
These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance.

It doesn't say "The techmarine from the Elites Slot" it just says Techmarine. The Gunner is a Techmarine so you can buy a unit of servitors.

I'm skeptical, but I can see your reasoning.

The unit is worth 2KP - it is an IC (he never stops being an IC, just cannot use the rule) with a unit (artillery is defined as a unit) it cannot leave. It perfectly fits the definition of a retinue

If you destroy the techmarine - the artillery piece is destroyed and you get 2 KP instantly. Destroy the artillery piece and you get a KP because the unit:artillery has been destroyed (it is now unit:IC), and destroy the Techmarine later to get a second point. Either way it is worth 2KP in total.

I'd have to say it's worth only 1KP as in SM codex pg73 Thunderfire cannon is listed as wargear.

Except it is also unit type: artillery, which makes it a unit the Tech cannot leave. Classic retinue....

Thunder555 wrote:I'd have to say it's worth only 1KP as in SM codex pg73 Thunderfire cannon is listed as wargear.

Well noted. That makes a huge difference in my view.

IMO the wargear on page 73 is only about the Techmarine's Servo Harness. I could be wrong, ofc... Luckily we'll never play Kill Points here.