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Alright, I'm EXTREMELY new to nids, and in fact took them up to get away from MEQ's and the like. I've grown tired of my 3+ armor saves (if that's even possible) and I want a change of a HORDE, though I hate the look of the greenskins. This left me with NIDS, and I'm happy with that.

So, I've seen sooo many different ways to play nids, I'm baffled. I've seen Tyrants, Nidzilla's, Hordes, and just well-rounded.

I want suggestions on how to make a good list, not a list itself. I really want something along the lines of a horde army, and I definitely enjoy Warriors. So, I'm asking for SUGGESTIONS, not a list itself. Any help, especially stuff that is going to become useful, is greatly appreciated. All I ask is I don't get the snarky comments about how no one will make a list for me. I want help, not a list itself please.

I have a friend who has played nids for years; he plays a balanced style. Some of his favorite units are leaping warriors/fexs with only assault upgrades(no shooting since they will be fleeting), cheap meat shield units, broodlord and hormigants.

GL with your nids!

Okay, I just want to tell you that Orks and IG can/are going to be able to do superior horde lists. Compared to Gaunts, Boyz just blow them out of the water. As far as I know, only Nidzilla is doing well competatively.

Onto list building! First off, do NOT go overboard on upgrades. Secondly, screen with cheapies to give cover saves. If you layer correctly, you can have Rippers giving cover to Gaunts giving cover to Warriors giving cover to Carnifexes. Thidly, don't mix CC and shooting on Carnifexes. They get really expensive. Fourthly, if you want to do the horde, have enough synapse. You don't want to rely on your Gaunt's awesome Ld to do things. Fifthly, Genestealers are awesome. Sixthly, for one point, Feeder Tendrils are pure win on Genestealers. Seventhly, if you take a Broodlord (I love mine), only give him Feeder Tendrils, not his retinue. Best three point upgrade EVAR. Eighthly, Scuttlers for outflanking 'stealers are awesome. Ninethly, Genestealers are very awesome. Hmmm, number two is more of a tactic. Tenthly, personally, Hormagaunts are too expensive to use.

Here's a list of some of my favorite units.

Ripper Swarms (7)- Nekkid- 70pts: Just for giving my Gaunts a cover save. Only seven because that's how many I have.
Carnifex- TL'ed Devourer (2), Enhanced Senses- 113: The Dakkafex. Great for short ranged fire support.
Carnifex- Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons-113: The Boomfex. Great for stunning vehicles and mincing infantry.
Gaunts (20)- Spinefists- 100: Les gaunties spiny. They take it in the face for the team and maybe overwhelm things if enough survive.
Gaunts (20)- Fleshborers- 120: Same as above but with more bite. I have a ton from Macragge.
Warriors (9)- Venom Sacs, Deathspitters, Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler- 254: I call it my cupcake factory. These guys can churn out the dakka like a squad of shootaboyz on crack. Plus, always fun to turn them on light vehicles. Wounding MEQ's on 2's will help make up for all the misses you'll have. My best round of shooting with them saw them dispatching four TH/SS Terminators after a deep strike. These guys are also nice for babysitting an objective with their personal meat shield (les gaunties spiny). Of course, this may be reduced in size to taste.
Broodlord- Extended Carapce and Feeder Tendrils- 83: Awesome CC unit. Three points to give him and his brood rerolls to hit? Hell yeah!
Genestealers (9)- Extended Carapace- 180: This is what I use for my Broodlord's retinue.
Genestealers (8)- Scuttlers, Feeder Tendrils- 160: Outflanky goodness. May add extra goodies, but I usually don't (unless I expect to see Nobs en masse. Then I force feed the nobs with Feeder Tendrils. Nothing as satisfying as watching a two hundred point troop unit devour a 750 point biker squad).
Zoanthrope (2)- Warp Blast (2), Synapse (2)- 130: I need to get a third. These guys are great for providing synapse and providing ranged AT and anti-MEQ firepower. You can also experiment with choirs (three with Psychic Scream) or give on Shadow of the Warp for at least some psychic defense, although I usually give Shadow to my Tyrant. Speaking of which...
Hive Tyrant- Venom Cannon, Scything Talons, Enhanced Senses, ToxinSacs, ExtendedCarapace, Shadow of the Warp-180: Yeah, this guy could use a redo. He's all over the place in terms of Bio-morphs. I do love him dearly though.

A nid list will typically contain fexes. 2 or more is preferred. There are several different load outs (dakka - 2x twin linked devourers with +BS, boomfex - Barbed strangler and scything talons, gunfex - venom cannon and barbed strangler). These are the most common and each of these has its place.

Tyrants are preferred over broodlords due to their increased survivability and damage output. They are also are more customizable than broodlords. There are 2 typical load outs - dakka or cc. Adding wings is quite common, although guard can make a nice addition in larger point games.

Warriors work best when equipped for a shooty role (deathspitters). Their indiscriminate nature really racks up wounds, and the extra strength can also help take out vehicles if you can get to the side armour.

Lictors, zoanthropes, hormagaunts really depend on a players taste, though biovores and raveners seem to be out at the moment due to not providing enough bang for the buck.

Stealers are great, though it takes some skill to use them properly. Outflanking is a sound tactic (though with the new IG dex be careful).

Gaunts without number can be a game winner. They are also relatively cheap and can swamp most opponents with sheer numbers...great stuff.

For a horde list I would definately suggest gaunts, gaunts and more gaunts, backed up with plenty of warriors equipped as mentioned above. Add tyrants and fexes to compensate for the lack of anti tank and maybe even a couple of zoanthropes for some real ranged tank busting as well as some extra synapse if you feel you are running low.

This is just my opinion, hope it helps.

It kind of dissapoints me that I have to buy as much of a useless unit as a needed unit, just to use half the box. Why can't gaunts be seperate?

Anyways, this all has helped a lot, especially RustyKnight and your long list of beauty. From what I have understood, for a 1000 point, I'd set it up like...

6-9 Warriors

A squad (maybe two) of stealers

Gaunts, Gaunts, and more gaunts

A few rippers purely for cover saves.

A fex (a second if possible).

Some zopes to help add synapse and AT.

Is this a good backbone, probably only use six warriors, but nonetheless.

Sounds like you are getting the hang of it. I'll try to confuse you a bit. Some of these ideas are unorthodox, mostly entertaining and not strictly optimized. So, depending on your goal use them with caution.

Gargoyles, hormagaunts and winged raveners can be useful to get a more distant shooty unit into close combat one turn earlier. Make sure you have some winged (or at least leaping, but that's trickier) synapse nearby.
You are going to want two squads of outflanking stealers, one is a bit too random with the reserve rolls. A stealer squad that will run without gaunt cover can benefit from 4+ armours, helps a bit in some close combats as well. One small squad of stealers with feeder tendrils can be placed in the rear ranks of your battleline to give the feeder tendril rerolls to your attacking gaunts.
If you are attacking space marines with gaunts, a fleshborer shot is surprisingly effective, 48p of borer gaunts kill one marine per shooting phase.
A few warriors or tyrant guards with lash whips can really handicap a close combat specialist. Aim for greater daemons, Marneus Calgar etc.
Lictors are used to get your scuttling stealers in when you want them. Remember that you are allowed to reroll successful reserve rolls as well. Don't attack anything in close combat with a lictor, except possibly light tanks, just keep him close to the fighting to give his feeder tendrils to the ones doing the killing.

(It kind of dissapoints me that I have to buy as much of a useless unit as a needed unit, just to use half the box. Why can't gaunts be seperate? )

I wanted to make lots of spinegaunts and got round this problem by using both types of gaunt for my spinegaunts. I simply bought extra spinefists from a parts site and added them to both types of gaunt. Worked well for me!

Your initial horde list is pretty good, nice and gribbly. I tend to play with lots of broods as I think this is in keeping with the character of the Nids and it's always fun to assault your opponent with wave upon wave of gaunts who ware the enemy down and just as the enemy gains the upper hand the hard hitting stuff (fex, stealers, tyrant) hits home and finishes them off . It's very Starship Troopers.

If you are going to have one Fex I'd recommend a cheaper one, for eg: 2 x sets of twin devourers or 2 x sets of talons, that'd free up more points for lots of other critters like stealers or even allow a larger warrior squad. Another reason is that as the only monstrous creature in your force it'd get singled out by enemy fire, so the odds are it could die soon (plus it is so big is wouldn't get a cover save from anything but the warriors who are too important to be used as a bullet screen). I don't want to sound pessamistic about a fex as I would still take one in your situation, it's just it will attract every heavy weapon from the enemy so by making it a beefy beast you're taking away points that could be used to bulk up the warriors or your broods.
Plus some might say that a maxed out Fex in 1000 is a bit cheesy .

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:It kind of dissapoints me that I have to buy as much of a useless unit as a needed unit, just to use half the box. Why can't gaunts be seperate?

Anyways, this all has helped a lot, especially RustyKnight and your long list of beauty. From what I have understood, for a 1000 point, I'd set it up like...

6-9 Warriors

A squad (maybe two) of stealers

Gaunts, Gaunts, and more gaunts

A few rippers purely for cover saves.

A fex (a second if possible).

Some zopes to help add synapse and AT.

Is this a good backbone, probably only use six warriors, but nonetheless.

Just keep a few things in mind when putting your list together:

-SYNAPE for gaunts. Having one synapse creature is never enough because you'll always have the zoanthrope pulled to one side to go against a tank and the gaunts will be too far away and become useless. Warriors are great for this as they're immune to ID and can be taken in large squads.

-Carnifexes, rippers, hive tyrants, warriors do NOT fleet. They can only run, which will force you to carefully consider where they are placed during deployment.

-Buy the box of gaunts, buy a few extra gun arms (or use the ones from the warrior box) and then sell the hormagaunt talons on ebay. People love to buy those so you won't be losing any money and having 4 different poses instead of 2 will make things look more visually appealing.

-Remember feeder tendrils. They have become one of the best upgrades we have. If you drop a lictor onto terrain with a group of warriors or a fex or even rippers and converge them onto a unit of anything, all units gain within 3" reroll their hits... With carnifexes that is absolutely invaluable!


You'll do great, and just ask around your local game shop and I can guarantee you can get extra weapons and bases from someone so you won't have to spend nearly as much as you think. It sounds like you already have a decent 1k list put together. Now you just need to play them and tinker with the upgrades that will take your good list into an excellent one!

If you are only going to take one fex then you really need to beef him up (+1 T, +1 W, +1 Sv, regenerate). Otherwise as mentioned above he will be the only target for heavy weapons and will go down far too easily. But then again, it's nearly always better to go for 2 cheap models than 1 big expensive 1.

I think in your list the one brood of warriors providing synapse is not a good idea. It's better to either include more warriors or split the squad. A dedicated turn of knocking out you synpase will see all your horde running the wrong way.

Good luck though...keep an eye on other threads as well, there are a lot of good ideas on dakka.

I wasn't saying one squad of warriors, since yes that would be stupid.

But in a 1000 point list, are two fexes REALLY necessary?

It's all about numbers. Godfex's just don't work anymore, even at the 1k level. If you have a devastator squad or even 2 obliterators that one godfex will go down quickly.

Lorgar's, it is absolutely smart to have 2 fex's @ 1k. You'll most likely be facing at least one AV14 tank and support units that'll wound on 2's or 3's and allow no save. My recommendation is to take 2 and have warriors (if that's your playing style). Hello cover save!

The key is to make them cheap so that you can replicate one type. Then if one goes down you still have another, forcing the enemy to focus on one, thus leaving the other bright & shiny!

Okay, here's what I have. Each squad of warriors runs with a squad of gaunts to claim objectives. The dakkafex moves up the field to engage the enemy with its devourers. The gunfex sits back and pulps squads and busts tanks. And the stealers outflank in when they are rolled up. What do you guys think? Decent, playable?

Tyranid Warriors x3 - Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
Barbed Strangler
Deathspitters x2
Scything Talons x3

Tyranid Warriors x3 - Adrenal Glands
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
Devourers x3
Scything Talons x3
Leaping

Stealers x12 - Feeder Tendrils
Scuttlers

Gaunts x21 - Fleshborers

Gaunts x20 - Fleshborers

Gunfex - Bonded Exoskeleton
Enhanced Senses
Barbed Strangler
Venom Cannon

Dakkafex - Enhanced Senses
TL Devourers

Here is something everyone hates, and is also completely wrong about:

Biovores.

A brood of 3 with bio-acid mines is worth FAR more than most other 165 points you can throw around. Against MEQ they are a life (and battle) saver being able to wipe squads in a single volley. The low strength is mildly problematic, and the Kill Point for a missed shot is RIDICULOUS, but those negatives are paltry compared to the joy of having a 48" range and overcoming every single piece of power armor that mine lands on.

Other types of mines are also good against the lighter armored races.

Hormagaunts are good ONLY if you are fighting Tau. Tau are VERY easily torn apart by a decent sized brood.

I like the list! You're definitely on to something here, but definitely don't forget what Mattlov has said. With such a small list you won't have lots and lots of things competing for heavy support slots, so I'd seriously consider biovores. Otherwise, good list all the way around. It's low on AT, but all bug lists are. Excellent choice for the gunfex too.

Good list, just two comments on your Warriors. First, I myself don't bother to take Enhanced Senses on Deathspitter Warriors, but if you've got the points, can't hurt. Secondly, I'd swap the Devourers for either a second set of Talons or for Claws. With a 12" charge, I don't see you getting more than a single turn of shooting.

On the subject of Biovores, I love them.

I gave the warriors leaping merely to be there and I had the points to go there. I was considering getting rid of it for more gaunts.

Also, I'm mainly fighting Orks, BT, and Nurgle (a real nurgle list).

The BT list is literally two squads of twenty with the AoBR dread, the one with a multi-melta. I think I'm set to fight these guys, so long as I get my shots off and he doesn't.

Orks. They're foot-sloggin so I'm not too worried. He has a squad of Nob Bikers and a Biker Warboss, but that's the worst of it.

The Nurgle... Well it's PM's and some tanks. I think I'll be okay here too.

All in all, now that I have your approval, I feel safe. In 1500, I'm definitely going to be adding at least a biovore. I loved them when I read the rules and I never understood why peple hated them.

Let me boost your confidence with leaping warriors...

I give mine rending/scything and devourers. They get to run for 1-2 turns, maximizing both their abilities. They shoot for one and then get into assault. I got in a squad of those warriors (there were 5 of them) with a unit of stealers that had feeder tendrils and they destroyed an elite 7 man unit of chaos terminators and a chaos tactical squad as well over the course of 3 turns. Their shooting took out 2 terminators before they got there, which was invaluable. You're playing a balanced list with them, and I think they do moderately well against everything. Have fun!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Oldgrue_on_Tyranids
Here's a recent overview article you could look into. My observations, YMMV.

Biovores are a waste *specifically* for the kill points they deliver, the utterly uncontrollable deployment of their spore mines, and their ridiculous cost. 165 points of Carnifex or Zoanthrope consistently perform more roles effectively than a unit of Biovores. Given their low BS and relatively long range, a battery of biovores can be expected to surrender 6+ KP in a game without reliably impacting a MEQ squad. Their unreliable return on investment makes them a liability, rather than a hope to eliminate MEQ squads.

Warriors in units of 3 are probably too small. If you must use Warriors consider 5 to force a significant investment of fire into them and look into using several weapons to maximize your ability to allocate wounds.

As for the Venom cannon... forget it. The Carnifex already achieves maximum strength and Enhanced Senses is far too expensive to provide a return on investment. I'm not convinced of its utility even on Tyranid Warriors.

Carnifex almost need Bio Plasma. There's little reason not to have it.
If you *must* have the Dakkafex, at least get spine banks and have three weapons to pound on a unit. Its not like you've got range to be concerned with.

On The gaunt box: Buy several boxes. With a unit of Leaping warriors, you can deliver them effectively even when surrounded by the hormagaunts and possibly even eke out some cover saves. While the Hormagaunts are expensive points wise they are fast as all get out.

On Lictors: Never. Save a few points and use a Carnifex.

I like the three large broods of Termagaunts and have to warn you that larger units can be a bit unwieldy for the first few games. You might want to consider two broods of both Genestealers and Termagaunts as well.
I might suggest a Hive Tyrant and a Carnifex so you can deliver your force in a more distributed manner or Zoanthropes to help ensure you have synapse.



edit: cleaned up an ugly URL and formatting.

Oldgrue wrote: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Oldgrue_on_Tyranids
Here's a recent overview article you could look into. My observations, YMMV.

Biovores are a waste *specifically* for the kill points they deliver, the utterly uncontrollable deployment of their spore mines, and their ridiculous cost. 165 points of Carnifex or Zoanthrope consistently perform more roles effectively than a unit of Biovores. Given their low BS and relatively long range, a battery of biovores can be expected to surrender 6+ KP in a game without reliably impacting a MEQ squad. Their unreliable return on investment makes them a liability, rather than a hope to eliminate MEQ squads.

Warriors in units of 3 are probably too small. If you must use Warriors consider 5 to force a significant investment of fire into them and look into using several weapons to maximize your ability to allocate wounds.

As for the Venom cannon... forget it. The Carnifex already achieves maximum strength and Enhanced Senses is far too expensive to provide a return on investment. I'm not convinced of its utility even on Tyranid Warriors.

Carnifex almost need Bio Plasma. There's little reason not to have it.
If you *must* have the Dakkafex, at least get spine banks and have three weapons to pound on a unit. Its not like you've got range to be concerned with.

On The gaunt box: Buy several boxes. With a unit of Leaping warriors, you can deliver them effectively even when surrounded by the hormagaunts and possibly even eke out some cover saves. While the Hormagaunts are expensive points wise they are fast as all get out.

On Lictors: Never. Save a few points and use a Carnifex.

I like the three large broods of Termagaunts and have to warn you that larger units can be a bit unwieldy for the first few games. You might want to consider two broods of both Genestealers and Termagaunts as well.
I might suggest a Hive Tyrant and a Carnifex so you can deliver your force in a more distributed manner or Zoanthropes to help ensure you have synapse.



edit: cleaned up an ugly URL and formatting.

You make a convincing argument for most everything, but I'd like to give a few rebuttals:

-Kill Points on spore mines: There are 3 other threads discussing this right now and the concensus leans towards spore mines not giving up KP as the codex entry says specifically that they are not scoring. This is debatable I think.

-Venom Cannons: If you're facing a land raider or predator it's important to prevent it from shooting because we basically have nothing that'll wreck it until turn 3 at least. Having a S10 gun with at least 2 shots is sometimes invaluable. And against dark eldar it has been so, so, so good to me.

-Spine banks on a dakkafex: As an MC can only fire 2 weapons per turn, I don't think that it's really worth it, especially since frag grenades do nothing for fexes in 5th.

-Biovores: They are expensive but I can't tell you how many marines I've killed (thus forcing a pin check also). Also in 4 of 6 games I wrecked a predator and or dreadnaught on turn 1, thus saving a LOT of gaunts...

-Lictor: Having an extra re-roll for an outflanking genestealer army can be invaluable (and with feeder tendrils lictors can help a lot).

-Hive Tyrants and zoanthropes: You are so correct it's not even funny...

I think a lot of the Biovore hate comes from people who can't hit with the scatter dice.

Grunt_For_Christ:

The Lictor's bonus to reserve rolls isn't worth the point cost. I used them when I started, but now they just sit in my case, neglected. But then, my Lictors seem to have Nerf Claws instead of Rending Claws...

I know what you mean... I never have a problem getting my spore mines to hit, so I like them just like you. For me, lictors reserve help does a lot for me--always does. And the rending claws, well, they're rending for me. Every single game he's been in he's taken out a tank, so I would have to admit that I'm a little biased.

(disclaimer: all percentages are based on the HAMulator program because my math is weak.)
@ Mattlov - I suspect its more that the chance to roll poorly outweighs the return on investment.

KP for spore mines - its dumb, but they form a new unit. A whole lot of room for debate.

Venom cannon - Although DE have characteristically low AV, and unilateral open-topped, we still run into the consistent issue with hitting. Presuming a hit gives a 67 percent chance of killing the vehicle...but the hit is likely to be around 1:6 since the DE are so fast.
Against a hard target like the Land Raider we have a much higher chance to hit but making an impact is about 50%. I'd rather take a few hits on the way in since the raider has a similar chance of killing the Carnifex in this lab example.

Lictor - With the changes to the IG coming up, I'm prone to agree with its value. At 80 points it becomes a risky proposition to counter the officer of the fleet's modifier.

There's some very good advice in this thread, I'd just like to add a couple tenets of my hive fleet. The best way to make your nid swarm durable and flexible is to keep these 3 concepts in mind:

1. Whenever possible, try to benefit from cover. My preference is to run a large 'gaunt fence' brood(24+) in front of the rest of my army(warriors & stealers, MCs behind the warriors) with a smaller WoN brood(10-16) covering the majority of the models in the fence. This way, unless the enemy can void cover, they have the unenviable decision of firing on a myriad of broods with a 4+ cover save, or blasting WoN gaunts who'll just come back anyway. The correct choice is to drop the WoN gaunts down to a small size and leave them alone, but they still accomplish their goal.
2. It's vital to make no one brood stand out as a must-kill unit. Barring Tyrants(always a high profile, can't do much, but try to shield them as best as possible), a strong mixed Nid army should try to achieve equilibrium between synapse creatures, monstrous creatures, scoring units(specifically Stealers), and fence units. If one of these groups is weaker than the others, it's easy for an enemy to focus fire that one portion of your army to extinction, causing the other parts to break. Try to reach a point where it'll take roughly the same amount of effort for your enemy to smear your gaunt wall as it would to cripple your synapse web, or limit your high-strength shots/hits. If you combine this theory with a properly run cover setup, very few armies will be able to effectively cripple the nids before they hit pay dirt with the big bugs. Keep in mind this applies to shooty nid armies that can be out assaulted by their enemies as well. The key is synergy.
3. DO NOT DEPEND SOLELY ON COVER. Never forget that the enemy can and will remove your beautiful gaunt formation from relevance with dirty ignores cover weapons or tactics. Whether it's whirlwinds blowing holes in your stealer broods, or kroot assaulting one side of your gaunt wall to pull them away from covering a key target, you will run into an issue where your cover goes bye-bye. Don't ignore volume of wounds, along with extended carapace. Sv+ is a smart purchase for warriors, outflanking stealers, tyrants(situationally), and carnifexes(if you really can't fit another fex). You'll find that most ignores cover weaponry will have an AP of 5 or higher, so that bump from 5+ to 4+ can be a life-saver for warriors and sometimes stealers, although I personally prefer just having more stealers. MCs benefit from EC as well, because Krak Missile equivalents lose a lot of their bite. This is more of a luxury, however, because it's VERY expensive to load out several MCs this way, and it's relatively useless to have 1 fex with a 2+, while 2 others are rockin a 3+ just asking for missiles in the face.

...oh, and as a critique of your list, I'd suggest just a few adjustments.

-I'd split the stealers into 2 groups of 6 instead of 1 of 12. This way, you don't have to worry as much about a poor outflank, or late reserve roll. Also, this'll give you 2 scoring units that work without synapse instead of 1. This can be a game winner in control point games.

-Personally, I'd take Reinforced Chitin over Bonded Exo on your gunfex. Bonded is great some of the time, but Chitin is always an extra wound. I think it's one of the best values for a fex. I'd also consider swapping one of your gaunt broods weapons down to spinefists, so you can afford chitin for your other fex.

-Personally, I prefer the boomfex(ST/BS) over the dakka(better range, strength, & close combat). Dakkas are difficult to use effectively, because they are relatively poor in CC, and have to dance around at medium range. They're lower S shots also limit their usefulness, especially against nob bikers. Being able to drop several S8 wounds on them at a time is devastating.

-To me, it looks like your synapse is a little light. Even losing 1 of the 2 warrior broods will be crippling for your army. I'd recommend either increasing the warrior brood size to 4 or 5 per, or squeezing in a third set of them.

-I'm also a fan of having 1 smaller gaunt brood with WoN. There's some very cool stuff you can do tactically with them(see above), plus, they have the ability to score outside of synapse during the first turn they run in off of board edge. Only Stealers can normally pull that off. Also remember that during table quarters missions(probably the worst deployment for nids), you can deploy them anywhere along either of your board edges!

-as was mentioned before, if you're running a brood of warriors with only blast weaponry(this goes for fexes also), ES is not that helpful. 1 less inch of scatter isn't that huge of a deal, you're really rolling for direct hits on the scatter die more than anything. If you absolutely need more accuracy, twin-linking the deathspitters will be more effective. You can run 3 warriors with TLDS naked for 90 pts, firing 3 TL S5 templates a turn. That's not how I typically run them(I prefer S+ and Sv+ ST/DS), but it is very effective...and cheap.

Hope some of this helps, I loves me some nids!