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Looking through the IG book, and reading the tactical suggestions put forth here, I'm starting to wonder if the basic IG gunline, composed of infantry platoons, is essentially obsolete?

Basic guard infantry went down in price, but they are still awful in close combat and mediocre shooters. With the new damage charts and options available, IG aren't going to rely on basic squads for dealing with heavy armor, making the venerable lascannon less essential. Veterans as troops coupled with cheap chimeras and available valkyries allow for a more mobile playing style while still being able to score objectives. The new heavy support options allow for plenty of tanks and artillery to make up for the loss of gunline fire power.

Here's an example of a list I knocked together really quickly:

CCS w/ standard, 3x plasma, Chimera

3 Veteran squads with 3x melta, in Vendetta

2 Veteran squads with 3x plasma, lascannon, in chimera

4 LRBTs, stripped

3 Griffon mortars.

that's five scoring units, 9 twin linked BS3 lascannons, 2 BS4 lascannons, 9 BS4 plasma guns, 9 BS4 melta guns, three griffons, four battlecannons, and a ton of armor.

The only real use I can see for basic infantry platoons would be as AC/GL cheap squads with quad flamer PCSs for dirt cheap anti-transport and counter assault purposes.

Or... and I hope this is the case, would the new orders, running, and mob up rule allow for guyspam to be viable again? You can take a lot of dudes at 1850....

I think that the orders are gonna make the meatshield effective as anything else... though, I'd like to see the viability of body spam and armor, personally, and judging by the entry I've seen for the Banewolf, isn't that an AP3 template that wounds anything on a 2+? Vehicles are a lot more hardy here, and that's one nasty means to keep ANYBODY off your lawn and out of your lines. This isn't 4th edition anymore....

Gunline obsolete? No, not at all.

However, this codex offers something interesting. Unlike the last codex (vets weren't scoring, grenadiers were overpriced), this codex actually makes an "elite" guard force viable.

You can run with only a handful of mounted scoring squads and a lot of heavy tanks and have a chance at winning.

However, this style (imo) is not superior (just different) to gunline. It doesn't have the capacity to take losses like gunline, it can't screen its armor nearly as good as gunline (melee/melta), it doesn't have a lot of scoring units, and it doesn't have good tarpit units.

It will be interesting to see which styles become more popular/successful.

I think a lot of people are seriously looking at a Vet army, for simply the ability to take LOTS of tanks. But I think people will find that that form of IG army is not easy to play.

Good topic.

I currently think that the strongest options in the guard dex are a combination of armor 12 vehicles and some armor 14 vehicles. When you are making an army that has armor 12 vehicles, and you have one of the best transports in the game which is also armor 12, then the list just wants to click in to place as a fully mech army.

Theoretically speaking, guyspam has a SCARY amount of firepower. Like a "no, you can't outshoot me" amount. It seems like it will really suffer like any slow army does, in missions that require you to actually move.

I haven't locked in my guyspam list yet, and I was looking really closely at al'rahem. So it didn't turn into a 'i basically tabled you, but you won big on objectives anyway.' I think I'd rather just make sure I have enough mortars and artillery that I can just pound your troops off of any objective. You can have as many elites and heavies as you want on those objectives, but your troops are meat. At a tourney you won't get any massacre results, but you could win a fair share of games, and anyone who geared to face mech guard will have a problem even touching you. Lets see what 1750 looks like in the way of firepower.

CCS mortar, regimental banner, MoO, fleet officer, chimera 185

Commissar lord 70

PCS 4x plasma, chimera 145
infantry squad flamer 55
infantry squad flamer 55
HWS 3x lascannon 105
HWS 3x lascannon 105
HWS 3x autocannon 75
HWS 3x autocannon 75
HWS 3x mortar 60

PCS, 4x plasma, chimera 145
infantry squad flamer 55
infantry squad flamer 55
HWS 3x lascannon 105
HWS 3x lascannon 105
HWS 3x autocannon 75
HWS 3x autocannon 75
HWS 3x mortar 60

colossus camo net 170

1775

I don't feel like finding the cut since this is just a theoretical list. Its a 20 kp list in annihilation. Which isn't a great improvement over the trouble it had before. The KPs are certainly harder to get than in a drop list. Your tools that kill infantry may be removed VERY quickly. If you are an assault based army, your army could be removed very quickly. the chimeras are in there despite being the only armor, because they are just great. They make your order batteries hard to kill off, many times giving you great LOS blocking terrain piece after it dies for your surviving command squads. One of the PCS chimeras can screen the CCS chimera, and the other can screen the colossus.

Some (mostly irrelevant) numbers...

12 lascannons (with two leadership 10 'bring it down's)
12 autocannons
6 mortars
3 multi-lasers
4 heavy bolters
2 ordnance barrages

72 models. 102 wounds.

It's way out of the box as far as a 5th edition army goes. But that firepower is probably pretty easy to underestimate. You won't be able to tie up all of the scoring units in this list. And it just might be able to do a focused attack on your own troops, taking them out. If it can then just clear away a single objective that it can sneak onto with a 'move, move, move', then it could get a win.


And just to be clear. I'm not trying to make that army sound like its top tier or 'good enough to beat your best' or anything. I just thought adding a tangible guyspam army to the thread might get more discussion going.

I've got the models and I'm willing to try it.

Polonius and Boxant... you guys want to share what you envision an infantry based gunline could look like?

Guard units hiding in Chimeras scare me more than Guard units on foot. You lose little firepower, but get a lot more survivable. Now, you're fielding half as many squads as guyspam, but they're a lot tougher as a result.

I'm still waiting to see a full codex set. When I do, then I'll have an opinion. I've spent a lot putting up my Tallarns in theme, snipers, missile launchers, and all. Will have to see how it works in the new 'dex. I'll put my "standard current build" together in the new system, and see what works and what doesn't.

Creon wrote:I'm still waiting to see a full codex set. When I do, then I'll have an opinion. I've spent a lot putting up my Tallarns in theme, snipers, missile launchers, and all. Will have to see how it works in the new 'dex. I'll put my "standard current build" together in the new system, and see what works and what doesn't.

Have fun with Al'Rahem. He has a great special rule that seems to be very 'in theme' with Tallarn. While making encirclement and outmaneuvering a snap.

Yes, getting old "AlRahem" back is something I'm definitely looking forward to. Also a couple of old Warzone models are going to be coming back as Variant Sentinels.

Shep wrote:

Polonius and Boxant... you guys want to share what you envision an infantry based gunline could look like?

HWS squad spam with a Commie Lord is interesting. Basically Creed/Kell on the cheap. However, if I was going to make that list, I would consider bumping to C&K, you would get more Orders (more BiD! & FomT!) and fitting HWS inside a 48" bubble is MUCH easier than fitting them in a 12" bubble But you'd have to drop some firepower, touch choice.



As for my take on Gunline. I believe that for IG gunline to be successful it needs mobile elements. This is just a first draft and obviously needs a lot of playtest/tweaks.

1750 IG


CCS: SB, OotF 95
CCS: 4melta, chimera 145

PCS: 4flamer, chimera 105
4x AC/GL 260

PCS: Chenkov 80
4x LC/PG 340

2x Vendetta 260

LRErad 160
LRDemo 165
Colossus 140


The gunline would be the infantry backed by CCS w/ Standard (reroll) and Chenkov (stubborn) effectively giving the core of the gunline all commissars. This gives me the option of bogging down assaults if needed, or moving chenkov back (and moving squad forward) and letting the squad get killed when assaulted. IMO this setup gives you tactic choice if you want to tarpit or if you want to just shoot them up.

Behind the Infantry you'll have tanks (hide CCS behind the tanks).

Vendettas can carry infantry squads or just tank hunt. However, if going up against arty (like whirlwinds) you can put your CCS(standard) & PCS(chenkov) inside the chimeras, and then put the CCS(melta) and PCS(flamer) inside the Vendettas.

I realize this list might not be considered IG "gunline" to some, but I still feel the core of this is is the gunline aspect of IG. That is to say, a mass of infantry, HW and tanks blazing away. I simply feel that IG needs mobile elements in addition to the gunline to be successful in 5ed.


edit: If i was really wanting to make this list mean, I would find a way to fit in a Choir

See, I wouldn't take HWS at all. i think that taking them trades away one of the big advantages of all infantry guard, which is that anti-tank weapons become nearly worthless. HWS can be squished, making S6+ weapons useful again. I don't have the book, but I'd build it around big platoons that can mob up.

CCS, fleet officer, artillery officer, standard, mortar: 125pts.

CCS , artillery officer, standard, mortar: 95pts.

PCS w/ 4x melta: 70pts
4x Squad w/ AC&GL: 260pts

PCS w/ 4x melta: 70pts
4x Squad w/ AC&PG: 300pts

PCS w/ 4x flamer: 50pts
4x Squad w/ LC&PG: 340pts

PCS w/ 4x flamer: 50pts
4x Squad w/ LC&PG: 340pts
Mortar squad: 60pts

That comes out to roughly 1760pts. It's got 8 lascannons, 8 autocannons, 8 flamers, 8 meltas, two inaccurate barrages, and plenty of orders. there are also nearly 200 bodies on the table.

Once I get my hands on a copy, I'm going to do some serious looking at both Al raheim and Sly Marbo. Both look to cover weakpoints in a manspam list, as does creed.

Marbo is no longer Sly...

and IMHO, I think gunlines have become much more efficient. with FRFSRF, 2 at 24" and 3 at 12" (times the number of guard benefitting from the order)

not to mention Vox's, providing re-roll, incase you fail.

what I plan to do, is have 2 vet squads, 1 full guard platoon-squad(50 men = 1 KP ) and either 1 penal squad or 1 conscript squad. more than likely penal. and of course there will be some heavy overdosage on HWS. then a psychic choir (the higher the pointbattle, the more squads of 'em I'll field.) then, an Eradicator(I think it is; plasma) with a Medusa w/ BB shells as one tank squad, a Demolisher squad'd with a nekkid russ, or two nekkid russes; maybe no Pask-usage. and of course, have C&K, a Lord Commissar (cuz what guardsman doesn't love getting shot in the back of the head with a BS5 bolt pistol?) and maybe a Banewolf or some Sentinels.

filling out every spot on the org chart pretty much, and costing........ I dunno. the tanks will point sink it ALOT, but in my head, I find it a very well balanced list. roughly guessing 2000pts off the top of my head.

with C&K giving 4 orders, have something for the vets (either FRFSRF also, or BiD! or I dunno.) definitely FRFSRF for the 50 man guard platoo-errr-Squad with re-rollable LD10, dunno for the penals.. and I forget if tanks can still take orders without Pask, but more than likely BiD! if they're able to. BB shells will wreak havoc to landraiders, straight up, and have the HWS overdose on lascannons. (assuming they'll be considered as vets; BS4 lascannons...) and the Lord Commi killing off my own men because he wants to make it easier on the enemy. ha

Figured I'd try my hand.
HQ
-CCS 205
Master of Ordnance, Fleet Officer, Creed, Vox

PLATOON 1 665
-PCS 60
Lascannon, Flamerx2

-Infantry Squad 70
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Vox
-Infantry Squadx2 130
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

-Infantry Squad 75
Lascannon, Vox
-Infantry Squad 70
Lascannon

-Heavy Weapon Squadx3 180
Mortarx3

-Conscripts 80

PLATOON 2 485
-PCS 60
Lascannon, Flamerx2

-Infantry Squad 70
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Vox
-Infantry Squadx2 130
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

-Infantry Squad 75
Lascannon, Vox
-Infantry Squad 70
Lascannon

-Conscripts 80

PLATOON 3 390
-PCS 50
Autocannon, Flamerx2

-Infantry Squad 70
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Vox
-Infantry Squadx2 130
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

-Infantry Squad 75
Lascannon, Vox
-Infantry Squad 70
Lascannon

1750 Points
Lascannons:8
Autocannons:10
Mortars:9
Grenade Launchers:9
KPs:15
230 Guardsmen...ok, wounds
Apologies if points values are too specific

A lot of little tweaks can be made, single Manticore to hide somewhere is tempting, as is Marbo or something else to contest stuff.
I think that except for hidden mortar teams the HWS are just too vulnerable to have a place in the gunline, which in my opinion needs a high model count. Massacres are tough but I think wins against most armies are quite doable. AV 14 can be trouble, but most tanks with AV 14 are transports and I can live with stunning them. Russ spam and BT LR spam cound be problematic, but not an auto-loss.

LuxuryYacht wrote:Figured I'd try my hand.
HQ
-CCS 205
Master of Ordnance, Fleet Officer, Creed, Vox

I think I'm going to try and coin a new slogan:

"Imperial Guard: If you're not using two HQs, you're doing it Wrong."

Find 20 point, and turn one of those PHQs into a CHQ.

Forgive my ignorance, just messing around with the new book, how do you magically make a PCS into a CCS without dropping a whole platoon? Also, IMO more guns is often greater than more shiny toys. But yeah another HQ is certainly a good place to put points, could obviously drop a lascannon squad or something for it. Though this was a quickie army list and you could easily be right, I haven't played a gunline in forever.

LuxuryYacht wrote:Forgive my ignorance, just messing around with the new book, how do you magically make a PCS into a CCS without dropping a whole platoon? Also, IMO more guns is often greater than more shiny toys. But yeah another HQ is certainly a good place to put points, could obviously drop a lascannon squad or something for it. Though this was a quickie army list and you could easily be right, I haven't played a gunline in forever.

a Platoon Command Squad can command between two and five infantry squads. So if you have three PHQs commanding two squads each, you can turn them into two PHQs commanding three squads each. Or one PHQ commanding five squads, with a separate squad of Veterans.

And upgrading your PHQ to a CHQ isn't sacrificing "more guns" for "more shiny toys." The CHQs are the guns. The whole unit now has BS 4, and it can issue two orders that can greatly increase the potency of your other guns. Or rally squads that have broken. Plus, the squad has a three wound character instead of a one wound character. And extra leadership. And the Commander has an invulnerable save. And the squad has better wargear options.

All for only 20 points.

Sorry if the list was not clear, those 3 platoons all have 5 infantry squads in each, 3 autocannon squads and 2 lascannon squads. But yeah you could drop a line squad if you wanted.

Also Edit:

For the most part I want my command squad out of harm's way, which means no heavy guns, 4 Voxed orders is usually plenty, a line squad is superior if you're talking t3 wounds, wargear is irrelevant, the army already screws over deep strikers, leadership is better achieved through Lord Commissars, and extra ordnance is good but hardly required in an army with firepower such as this. So I reiterate, extra HQ is a very valid choice, but I wouldn't call it wrong to do otherwise.

I think the ability that infantry platoons have to "mob up" and veterans make a gunline very effective.

What really puts gunline over the top is the fact that HWS are now part of basic platoons. You have gone from being able to have 9 heavy weapons teams and no tanks to 30 heavy weapons teams plus tanks, plus Valkyries. Also heavy weapons teams are scoring units and can be used to great effect with orders such as BID.

I think if you dropped 12 HWS on the table with accompanying grunt platoons and some tanks, you could easily do quite well. I personally wouldn't want to make a guard horde army because setting it up and putting it away would take forever, but it's very doable.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
I think if you dropped 12 HWS on the table with accompanying grunt platoons and some tanks, you could easily do quite well. I personally wouldn't want to make a guard horde army because setting it up and putting it away would take forever, but it's very doable.

The key to IG set up and take down is squad markings, both on every model in the army, and in their army transport trays. Every squad in my army has a unique pattern of colors in their epaulaettes, designating their platoon and squad. That way you can take down causalities as they occur, and immediately put them away, rather than waiting for complete squads. In addition, if you have a transport tray, you can use that.

I used to run horde IG back in the day, and while it takes a little longer, swiftly deploying 175 IG can be done relatively easily. I've also found that if you tell most TOs what you're playing, they'll either give you a bit more time, or give you a table assignment first so you can set up.

It's been a really long time since IG gunline was an effective list. I can't remember the last time I came up against one in a tournament and didn't think, "Sweet, free massacre." The 4th edition Eldar codex signaled the beginning of the end with the flying circus and the Ork book was the nail in the coffin. And then of course there was 5th edition, which mandates mobility and KP management.

As for the new book, the strength is obviously in a mechanized list. Taking Vets with BS 4 and up to 3 meltaguns in a dirt-cheap Chimera is a no-brainer choice for troop selections unless you have Sisters of Battle allies. The codex is deceptive in that it offers a lot of seemingly neat tricks for infantry (combining squads, orders, grav chuting out of flyers, etc.), but they all pale in comparison to the inexpensive and exceedingly strong firepower available from Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices.

Itll come down to how good a ratio of guardsmen per order you want to achieve.

Personally, Im liking 40 guardsmen with 4 lascannons. Its not the AC/GL that some preach but if you point those guardsmen at a tank, that tank will probably go boom (with the TL-order) & if you point those guardsmen at infantry either having rapid 2-3 lasguns @ 12-24" plus those four normal bs3 lascannons Or tl-linking everything as standard will see alot of troops die. Likewise you could simply force a re-roll on cover instead.

There should be enough CCS & PCS's with h.bolters/AC's all in chimeras with some more mid-strength weaponary.

Stick your hq's (and posssibly your Platoon command squads) in chimeras and keep everything on foot making use of awesome shooty-orders.

Don't forget about infantry altogether, without them you cant win objectives which has been the downfall of a number of marines players iv beaten. I think two vet squads would be a liability even though it allows more tanks.

Vet squads are troops now, so they're scoring and they're very effective at tank killing and MEQ killing due to three special weapons. An all vet list is viable, but more delicate than one with infantry if you ask me...

Having more infantry always helps, especially when they're humans. As schrag has said, too few infantry squads can lose a person an objectives game, as i too well know.

CCS - 110 pts
officer of the fleet
astropath
meltagun

CCS - 110 pts
officer of the fleet
astropath
meltagun

240 pts


PCS - 60 pts
3 Melta

infantry squad - 65 pts
autocanon
grenade launcher

conscripts - 200 pts
30 extra

585 points

PCS - 60 pts
3 Melta

infantry squad - 65 pts
autocanon
grenade launcher

conscripts - 200 pts
30 extra

585 points

PCS - 60 pts
3 Melta

infantry squad - 65 pts
autocanon
grenade launcher

conscripts - 200 pts
30 extra

585 points



-1995 points
-21 scoring units
-capable of low balling down to 11 scoring units with mobbing up squads
-329 models
-15 autocanons
-15 grenade launchers
-11 meltaguns


329 men on the table. Thats a lot of men. Especially when it's capable of being only 11 kill points.

ShumaGorath wrote:CCS - 110 pts
officer of the fleet
astropath
meltagun

You don't seem reliant on reserves. What's with the 2x astropaths?

Dave47 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:CCS - 110 pts
officer of the fleet
astropath
meltagun

You don't seem reliant on reserves. What's with the 2x astropaths?

It's just a list I threw together as fast as I Could. Take those out and try and fit some commissars in. Or replace them with the barrage guys/bodyguards.

Only problem I see with Shummy's list AV 14 at range, which is basically the mech guard mirror match, pretty sweet list though.