Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Unfortunately Incoming is rather explicit in its wording and has conflictions with Get Back in the Fight, and Incoming is rather explicit.

Incoming :
"... ordered unit immediately goes to ground...." Note that "goes to ground" is not capitalized as "Goes to Ground," which would more specifically imply you are using "Go to Ground" rule, "... The ordered unit receives +2 cover save, rather than the normal bonus. Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally until the end of the player's following turn."

Get Back in the Fight is also rather explicit in what it affects, stating it can only be used on units that are "falling back" or have "gone to ground." Not that there is not statement about the Incoming order covered under Get Back in the Fight.

No, they really dont. Go to ground in your turn for +2, and if you are already "gone to ground" at the start of your turn you can use "Get back in the fight" to make them stand up.

Unless you think you can give orders on your opponents turn?

I believe what your asking is can a unit be given the order "incoming" and then the following turn given the order "Get back in the fight"?

If that's the case I believe you can. Incoming just says that they go to ground, and wouldn't act normally until the end of your following turn. which is similar to the regular action of going to ground. Except assuming you can't issue 'Incoming" on their turn the unit in question is gone to ground one more of your player turns then the regular going to ground.

Here are the two possible scenarios

EX1. Just 'Incoming'

IG Turn - 'Incoming'

TAU Turn - Fires (+2 going to ground)

IG Turn - Still gone to ground

TAU Turn - Fires (Normal Save)


EX2. 'Incoming' + 'Get Back in the Fight'

IG Turn - 'Incoming'

TAU Turn - Fires (+2 going to ground)

IG Turn - 'Get back in the Fight' (then functions normally)

Unfortunately Incoming is rather explicit in its wording.

Incoming :
"... ordered unit immediately goes to ground...." Note that "goes to ground" is not capitalized as "Goes to Ground," which would more specifically imply you are using "Go to Ground" rule, "... The ordered unit receives +2 cover save, rather than the normal bonus. Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally until the end of the player's following turn."

Get Back in the Fight is also rather explicit in what it affects, stating it can only be used on units that are "falling back" or have "gone to ground." Not that there is not statement about the Incoming order covered under Get Back in the Fight.

Skinnattittar wrote:Unfortunately Incoming is rather explicit in its wording.

Incoming :
"... ordered unit immediately goes to ground...." Note that "goes to ground" is not capitalized as "Goes to Ground," which would more specifically imply you are using "Go to Ground" rule, "... The ordered unit receives +2 cover save, rather than the normal bonus. Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally until the end of the player's following turn."

... Really? You are arguing they are not going to ground because it is not Capitalised... REALLY? No, just no. GW are NOT consistant with Capitilation, EVER. Gone To Ground = Gone to ground = gone to ground = gone to Ground = gone To Ground etc etc
Look, it is simple. Turn 1 you issue "INCOMING!", the unit goes to ground with a +2 Mod and would normally be unable to do ANYTHING until the start of T3. Now, if on T2 you successfully pass the "Get Back in the Fight!" order, you stop that and can shoot that turn.

Skinnattittar wrote:Get Back in the Fight is also rather explicit in what it affects, stating it can only be used on units that are "falling back" or have "gone to ground." Not that there is not statement about the Incoming order covered under Get Back in the Fight.

It doesn't have to, because you Go to Ground because of Incoming!

Gwar! wrote:... Really? You are arguing they are not going to ground because it is not Capitalised... REALLY? No, just no. GW are NOT consistant with Capitilation, EVER. Gone To Ground = Gone to ground = gone to ground = gone to Ground = gone To Ground etc etc

While certainly I agree at the lack of consistancy in grammar, "Gone To Ground = Gone to ground = gone to ground = gone to Ground = gone To Ground" is quite incorrect, and skinnattittar did accurately point out why they are not the same. For you to say that it is the same is flat out wrong. You could say that YOU are interpreting them to be the same thing, but as a point in fact they are, strictly speaking, not the same.

Dracos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:... Really? You are arguing they are not going to ground because it is not Capitalised... REALLY? No, just no. GW are NOT consistant with Capitilation, EVER. Gone To Ground = Gone to ground = gone to ground = gone to Ground = gone To Ground etc etc

While certainly I agree at the lack of consistancy in grammar, "Gone To Ground = Gone to ground = gone to ground = gone to Ground = gone To Ground" is quite incorrect, and skinnattittar did accurately point out why they are not the same. For you to say that it is the same is flat out wrong. You could say that YOU are interpreting them to be the same thing, but as a point in fact they are, strictly speaking, not the same.

No offence, but they are. or are you going to claim that if GW ever print a Rule that gives something a "4+ Cover save" that it is not the same as a "4+ cover save" or a "4+ cover Save", and therefore you get to take both?

Furthermore skinnattittar accurately pointed out GW don't have consistent capitalisation. That is all he pointed out.

Actually sorry friend, but a proper noun is different from other words. Capitalization can denote a proper noun, as in the examples above.

And no, you cannot take multiple saves. Only 1 save ever (lol?).

@ Gwar : So are you saying that as long as certain words are in the correct order or even if a single word is present then that is the rule to follow despite other points of context around it? No, that would be silly. Also, I think perhaps my point did not make it to you as intended. What I was trying to put forward is that the rule is not explicitly about Gone to Ground but the Incoming order and whether or not the later statement of "Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally until the end of the player's following turn..." can be over ridden by the Get Back in the Fight order, as this "Note" is very explicit about its intent, and the earlier precedence of "going to ground" is less explicit. Even if both are equally explicit, it would still mean that their is a still conflicting written intent. In GW's history of rules writing, an explicit exception statement usually overrides equally explicit applying statement.

No, what is silly is you claiming that Going to Ground is not the same as going to ground because of Incoming, when they are the exact same thing, regardless of your mad capitalisation claims.

Considering that I just said that that is not the main feature of this thread, just one small bit of potential evidence, and even discounting it, it still does not override the other evidence, for what reason are you posting an inflammatory statement Gwar? I will have to ask you not to troll a valid subject or I may take measures to bring this issue to mediation with the proper moderators, and to that, I mean the Moderators (note the importance of Capitalization in that sentence).

How am I being inflammatory when it was in fact you who made the first Inflammatory comment?

No, that would be silly

Or is it only Inflammatory when I say it?

Furthermore, your Original post was a whopping one sentence with no real explanation as to what you actually meant. You then went on to explain that apparently Gone to Ground is not the same as gone to ground, which is ludicrous to the extreme (please do not take my use of the word ludicrous, capitalised or not, to be considered inflammatory, it is merely used for dramatic effect) and just showing that you were not open to actual interpretations, but believed it worked XYZ way and Be damned if you are going to argue that it works ABC way.

If you may, as I have trouble fathoming such an unorthodox train of thought, please explain why Gone to Ground is not the Same as gone to ground?

Furthermore, can you explain why Going to Ground is different to going to ground, when the rules for pinning on page 31 of the BRB say "go to ground" (exactly like Incoming!) rather than Go to Ground. Are you also Suggesting that a unit failing a Pinning test does not Go to Ground but rather goes to ground the same was as Incoming! and so cannot be affected by GBitF? In fact, every instance of gone to ground in orders i can find are not capitalised, both in Incoming and GBitF. So why would GBitF not work for Units gone to ground via Incoming?

Again, even if we assume that "goes to ground" is the same as "Goes to Ground" we still have a problem. So let us unhook from that issue and continue forward with the discussion.

Skinnattittar wrote:Again, even if we assume that "goes to ground" is the same as "Goes to Ground" we still have a problem. So let us unhook from that issue and continue forward with the discussion.

What problem do you have? I see none.

Turn 1 you issue Incoming! They "go to ground" but instead get a +2 Mod to the cover save instead of the +1. They have still gone to ground however, and therefore they will be unable to do anything until the start of Turn 3. Reading it as something separate to Gone to Ground as per Page 24 means that they would be free to act as normal on T2, not to mention they would not get the bonus to cover save (since the order specificaly says it replaces the normal bonus), so they must have Gone to Ground.

On turn 2, you issue GBitF to that Unit. They pass. They were "gone to ground" (in that they could not do ANYTHING) but now they are not, so they can shoot and assault as normal.

What part of that are you having trouble understanding? (Not being snarky, a genuine Question)

The explicit part of the order in which it states, and I quote directly from the Codex : Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition, 2009, page 36, tenth paragraph (depending upon interpretation of paragraph count), third sentence; "Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally until the end of the player's following turn." This is pretty explicit as to what is to happen, and creates a possibly confliction if you are trying to order Get Back in the Fight, which only affects a unit falling back or has Gone to Ground, it does not make any statement about other special rules, even if those special rules include falling back or Gone to Ground. No, Get Back in the Fight only affects falling back and Get Back in the Fight, as it states under the order entry on page 30. One could interpret how it is phrased to say all special rules are negated, however. Byt this creates an area of confliction still as to whether or not that is the case. Hence the need for discussion on this thread rather than dictation by those that are not in positions to dictate anything.

Good luck convincing a tournament judge with your capitalization/non-capitalizaion junk. Protip: it's not going to fly.

@ phear : Please read the entire thread before making such statements. That has already been covered and was only used to show that there is more than just one point of flaws in the wording of the orders.

HAHAHAHA! You do realise the part about not being able to act is what's called a "reminder", since it is the same wording as the rules for going to ground?

You will have to point me to where in the rules it says to beware of confusing reminders and concreting parts of rules of intent. Before you make a comment about something like "common sense," I will have to remind you that common sense is not common, nor is it sensical. Especially with a system like 40k being more akin to writing law than writing rules.

And with that, I take my leave of this thread. I've made my points, and proved you are utterly incorrect. If you wish to keep at it, that's your prerogative.

Gwar! wrote:HAHAHAHA! You do realise the part about not being able to act is what's called a "reminder", since it is the same wording as the rules for going to ground?

This is correct. Although your tone is condescending (not unusual for you IMHO). You need to lose the tone and just answer the questions or not post.

As for the wording, it is worth considering (as Gwar indicates) that the word "Note" indicates that the information they are providing is not new, and is a reminder of additional restrictions already in place when using this new ability. I think you are looking too hard at this, its fine. There are a couple minor inconsistencies (such as capitalization), but that's par for the course with GW.

Dracos wrote:As for the wording, it is worth considering that the word "Note" indicates that the information they are providing is not new, and is a reminder of additional restrictions already in place when using this new ability. I think you are looking too hard at this, its fine. There are a couple minor inconsistencies (such as capitalization), but that's par for the course with GW.

This is a polite way to carry a discussion without being offensive to the point of simply being a troll and subjective. Thank you Dracos, I find this to be a vindicating objective view, which I find difficult to argue against a rational post such as this other than to comment that "Note" may still be a quantifier statement, so I would like to keep this thread open for further input, until then, I will agree with you.

As a side note for anyone who may be wondering which side of the arguement I am on, I will provide a bit of background. Last Friday the 9th of May, I was at my hobby shop discussing potential tactics and qualms of the new codex with a fellow IG player. I noted that one could put a unit into Incoming then pull them back out with Get Back in the Fight the next turn, thus using a tough bullet shield unit to gain a 2+ save on itself, and a 4+ save for units behind, then returning them to active service. He pointed out the odd wording of the Get Back in the Fight order and I concurred that it perhaps required additional discussion, but I would use it as it seemed to be intended. Here, in this thread and earlier at the hobby shop, without definitive input one of us had to play devil's advocate as there seemed to be a difficult point with the rules that might need clarification.

I don't think there is any way to clean up this thread without pretty much erasing it, so I'm just going to lock it.

Before I do that I do want to say that I think the rules are crystal clear in this situation:

"If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately goes to ground. The ordered unit receives +2 to its cover save, rather than the normal bonus. Note that this means the squad will not be able to act normally unit the end of the player's following turn."

The two sections I've highlighted in red make it very clear that this order is referencing the rules for 'go to ground' as that is the "normal bonus" they are referring to (normally you get +1 to your cover save for going to ground) and the "note that this means" indicates that they are merely explaining an existing rule (the 'go to ground' restriction about when the unit can act normally again).

In fact, if this rule somehow doesn't refer to the 'go to ground' rule then it is horribly underwritten and doesn't explain at all what the unit is allowed to do and not do while it is not able to 'act normally'.


If for some reason anyone thinks this issue still isn't clear, feel free to start a new thread.