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zedsdead wrote: GW seems to be pretty clear in there rule design that they will tell you how the occupents of a transport can interact above and beyond normal embarkation rules if they want that to happen.
And yet again you're making up things. Reminder text doesn't make an unrelated rule suddenly not work.
feel free to show me in the rules where this phantom reminder text is. You can make up reasons to dismiss it but none of the rules i listed above are a case of "reminder text" i know it suits your needs to call it such.. but its not. Its part of the allowence rule. Tallern doesnt have it. So no.
Stephanius wrote: You are however ignoring the reserve rules. Nothing in the transport rules exempts you from the requirements of the reserve rules.
The reserve rules don't care about embarked units. Ogryns inside a stormlord are not "in ambush", they are embarked on the transport. It doesn't matter where the transport is, the rules don't care.
actually they do care... thats the reason why your Phantom reminder text exists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/25 16:59:40
Stephanius wrote: You are however ignoring the reserve rules. Nothing in the transport rules exempts you from the requirements of the reserve rules.
The reserve rules don't care about embarked units. Ogryns inside a stormlord are not "in ambush", they are embarked on the transport. It doesn't matter where the transport is, the rules don't care.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
It's a bit sad really.
Clearly, the reserve rules require each unit that will appear as reinforcements to have that ability. There is no provision in the reserve rules for exempting embarked units from this requirement. Ergo, your statement is false.
Your entire plan appears to be to talk your opponent into conflating embarkation and reserves (or flipping the table) while you are blatantly having the ogryns hitch a ride and arrive in an outflank position, somehow without going through reserves.
Stephanius wrote: Clearly, the reserve rules require each unit that will appear as reinforcements to have that ability.
[Citation Needed]
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit in Reserve etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ...
Matched Play - Tactical Reserves - BRB p. 215.
Here you go. As previously posted, being in reserves is an ability/rule units have.
There is no provision in the reserve rules for exempting embarked units from this requirement. Ergo, your statement is false.
Yes, there is, in the Transport Sidebar.
That is both false and illogical. The transport rules are core rules which do not in any way mention reserves. The reserve rules are advanced rules, so logically they could include a provision for embarked units, but do not.
In fact, every known instance of units arriving via reserves, including transports, supports my position that explicit permission to be held in reserves is required.
Stephanius wrote: In fact, every known instance of units arriving via reserves, including transports, supports my position that explicit permission to be held in reserves is required.
So by that logic, any transport that doesn't explicitly give the embarked unit the ability to move X" (where X is the M of the transport) breaks the game?
Stephanius wrote: In fact, every known instance of units arriving via reserves, including transports, supports my position that explicit permission to be held in reserves is required.
So by that logic, any transport that doesn't explicitly give the embarked unit the ability to move X" (where X is the M of the transport) breaks the game?
No, because whilst embarked the models aren't on the Battlefield to be moved, affect things or be affected. You remove them and place them back when they disembark. That's in the Transport rules. ;-)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/25 21:31:14
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Stephanius wrote: In fact, every known instance of units arriving via reserves, including transports, supports my position that explicit permission to be held in reserves is required.
So by that logic, any transport that doesn't explicitly give the embarked unit the ability to move X" (where X is the M of the transport) breaks the game?
No, because whilst embarked the models aren't on the Battlefield to be moved, affect things or be affected. You remove them and place them back when they disembark. That's in the Transport rules. ;-)
And likewise, "whilst embarked the models aren't in Ambush to be moved, affect things or be affected. You remove them and place them back when they disembark. That's in the Transport rules. ;-)"
Stephanius wrote: In fact, every known instance of units arriving via reserves, including transports, supports my position that explicit permission to be held in reserves is required.
So by that logic, any transport that doesn't explicitly give the embarked unit the ability to move X" (where X is the M of the transport) breaks the game?
No, that is a false comparison. The difference is that the transport rules do not require the embarked units to match their transports movement range.
Conversely, the reserve rules do require that each reserved unit has to have the ability to enter reserves. This isn't just idle talk, as demonstrated by each known reserveable unit having such a rule.
Which incidentally is the requirement that your illegal deployment violates:
1) Reserve Rules require each unit to have an ability/rule to enter the battlefield as reinforcements.
2) A Stratagem adds this ability to THREE TALLARN units.
3) You chose a Tallarn Stormlord as one of these units
4) you declare Non-Tallarn Ogryn to be embarked in the reserved transport, because
a) they can embark in a transport (TRUE)
AND
b) they have implicit permission to be in reserve via transport rules (FALSE)
OR
c) totally don't need permission like any other unit in reserves, because they are do cute (FALSE).
For 4 to evaluate to TRUE, its components need to be true.
4b is FALSE, so 4 evaluates to FALSE.
Ergo, 3 =/= 4; non-Tallarn =/= Tallarn.
If you stick your fingers in your ears and ignore that...that is where the game breaks.
Stephanius wrote: Conversely, the reserve rules do require that each reserved unit has to have the ability to enter reserves. This isn't just idle talk, as demonstrated by each known reserveable unit having such a rule
And yet you offer no proof that it is anything but reminder/convenience text, because there is none. There is no global overarching rule you can point to. You are making up rules where none exist.
Either way GWFAQs it, I am following the letter of the law (RaW) and am thus objectively correct. Either GW will enforce RaW or make a Special Snowflake FAQ ala Blood Grail and Index Pask. That's the great advantage of actually playing a game by the rules rather than house ruling it or trying to argue RaI.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/25 22:26:35
Stephanius wrote: Conversely, the reserve rules do require that each reserved unit has to have the ability to enter reserves. This isn't just idle talk, as demonstrated by each known reserveable unit having such a rule
And yet you offer no proof that it is anything but reminder/convenience text, because there is none. There is no global overarching rule you can point to. You are making up rules where none exist.
Either way GWFAQs it, I am following the letter of the law (RaW) and am thus objectively correct. Either GW will enforce RaW or make a Special Snowflake FAQ ala Blood Grail and Index Pask. That's the great advantage of actually playing a game by the rules rather than house ruling it or trying to argue RaI.
Except FAQing "Three Tallarn units" to say "yes, we really, really do mean only 3, only Tallarn units, and figured those three words ably covered it" wouldn't be a "special snowflake" thing. It wouldn't be changing the rules, only clarifying them. If so you would never have been correct and playing by the RAW, objectively, subjectively, or any other -ively. I simply cannot believe those three words need FAQing but here we are.
And reminder text still isn't a thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/25 22:49:49
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Its a loophole in the rulebook, which BCB is extremely fond of and excels at creating.
His argument is logical, althought its a complete exploitation of poorly written rule - there is a loophole in RAW that doesnt clearly define the locale of the units embarked in a transport. While embarked are units are 'off battlefield' but are not necesarilly in reserve locale.
What BCB is claiming is that because the rulebook does not specify that units inside a transport share the locale of the said transport, you cannot prevent a unit from entering into a transport that is in reserves. It doesn't matter if the unit in question has the ability to enter reserves. The unit is not entering reserves but entering a transport.
He then goes to dismiss the special rule that certain transports that must/may start in reserves by claiming that it is merely reciting what a transport can do from the BRB, and not granting any special permissions as to what it can do - aka the reminder text, because the transport rule does not cover the interaction when a transport is in reserve. This somehow then spills over into the argument "it is not granting any unit any special rules/abilities. by extension of your argument, units that dont have fly keyword cannot enter flying transports because for some reason riding in a transport must have matching ruleset that allows you to follow the movement rules of the said vehicle." (This portion i still dont understand the rationale behind it).
Its an argument of innocent until proven guilty. He is exploiting "you dont have the permission to override a rule unless it specifically conflicts one another. If it isnt a conflict but rather same wording, it is reminding you there is such a rule, and not creating a special exception because it doesnt tell you a more specific version of a rule doesnt override the general one that exists in the brb." It is fallacious and malicious interpretation of the "Law aka RAW" but not completely illogical. Hes exploiting the lack of specific phrases that tells you when a rule is more specific, it overrides the general rule in the BRB.
BCB is correct in the ruling. Tactical Reserves in the matched play rules only states that units have the ability to use 'deep strike' rules. And that no less than half of the units in your army must be deployed on the battlefield
Rule here:
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
The Tallarn Stratagem allows you to place 3 TALLARN units in ambush. Following it's restrictions of how far from the table edge and enemy they have to be.
Rule for transport here:
TRANSPORTS
Some models are noted as being a TRANSPORT on their datasheet – these vehicles ferry warriors to the front line, providing them with speed and protection. The following rules describe how units can embark and disembark from transports, and how they are used to move their passengers across the battlefield. Note that a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn.
Transport Capacity: All transports have a transport capacity listed on their datasheet. This determines how many friendly models, and of what type, they can carry. A model’s transport capacity can never be exceeded.
When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.
Disembark:Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).
Note that the rules stating units embarked on a vehicle is actually before the EMBARK rules, it's only requirement being that you must declare that unit is embarked in the vehicle when it's set up.
Hence we return back to the Tactical Reserves ruling above it.
Make no mistake, these are the rules from the CORE RULEBOOK word for word. There is nothing wrong with BCB's following of the ruleset. He is following the rules as written.
Does it sound cheese? Maybe. Could other armies do this? of course they could. Is it illegal? Absolutely no way is it illegal
Also. for those that thought that this would fall under reinforcements? The unit has already been purchased for the army, in no way are these considered reinforcements
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/26 09:01:41
I would just like to add, from my reading of the rule, either any unit can be in the transport in ambush, or non could.
Ambush - Tallarn Stratagem Use this Stratagem during deployment. Choose up to three Tallarn units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield (only one of these units can have the Vehicle keyword).. At the end of any of your Movement phases these units can strike from hiding - set each of them up wholly within 7" of any battlefield edge and more than 9" from any enemy models. The units are considered to have moved their maximum distance.
If you'll notice, in addition to being in ambush when you arrive from ambush all of the units must be placed as described in the text above. The stratagem offers no exception to units in transports that are ambushing.
That means any units using the stratagem to ambush cannot be in transports because it is impossible to be in the transport and follow the stratagems rules for setting up when they strike from hiding.
Therefore either
the rules work as BCB says and any unit can be ambushed in inside of the transport,
OR
the rules work as Stephanius suggests and no unit can ever be in a transport that is ambushing, because only units using ambush would be able to embark on it while it is in ambush, but the ambush rule itself would prevent them per above.
BaconCatBug wrote: Following the rules is not "abusing a loophole", it's following the rules.
A loophole that only works if you ignore advanced rules is a very poor loophole. Laughable in fact, except for the entertainment value! =]
To summarize:
Transport rules deal only with units embarked in transport on the battlefield, which is logical, because there are no reserves in the core rules.
There is no restriction against embarking in a transport in reserves. True, but logical and irrelevant. There is no general permission to be in reserves, so a restriction is redundant.
There is also no permission for transport passengers to ignore reserve rules or any other mention of reserves. Again logical and expected.
Now, on to reserve rules. Since the transport happens to be in reserve and the whole shell game's objective is to smuggle an uneligible unit through reserves, reserves are clearly relevant.
Matched Play - Tactical Reserves - BRB p. 215:
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit in Reserve etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ...
Now, unlike prior editions, we cannot just hold back a unit and have it move into the game from the board edge because we feel like it.
Here is what that rule says:
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, ...
Beyond what the core rules permit you to do, here come exceptions.
... many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit in Reserve etc.
Those exceptions are unit abilities. In other words a rule that grants the unit permission to do something.
... in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ...
In this case, permit the unit to arrive on the battlefield AFTER the game has started.
This sounds very basic, and it is basic. The first rule sentence in Tactical Reserves tells us that each unit, that can arrive mid-game, will have explict permission.
In addition to this permission, many units do also have alternate deployment permissions, such as anywhere, 9" away from enemy units.
Since only units with the ability to be in reserve can be in reserve, obviously, units without the explicit ability to be in reserves cannot be in reserves. That is really not complicated.
In BCBs shell game, the ogryns begin the game embarked in a transport which is in reserve. That is why BOTH reserve and transport rules are relevant.
Does BCBs shell game place the ogryns in reserve? Absolutely, the rules define reserve as arriving on the battlefield mid-game, which they are meant to do. This is an Ogryn taxi idea after all.
Do the ogyrns have an ability/rule that permits them to be in reserves? No. Ergo they cannot be set up in a reserved transport. The end.
It's very simple. EVERY UNIT that can enter the game via Reserves and EVERY STRATAGEM that permits this grants the specific units the permission to be in reserves.
If it would be only a stratagem or two dealing with transports, we could maybe find some wiggle room, but every unit that can DS, outflank or infiltrate has a permission to be in reserves in it's datasheet.
This is not an accident. It also has NOTHING to do with transport rules per se.
It only becomes difficult when you arbitrarily and unilaterally get to decide that some rules are not rules IF they would stop abuse of a perceived loophole.
Just because one doesn't perceive the Reserve rules consciously before doesn't mean they aren't rules.
tl:dr RAW, units inside the transport in reserve is inside a transport exclusively and not inside a transport in reserve. RAI, transport units can only carry passengers in reserves if it is specifically allowed to do so.
Original Post:
A better argument to this is to cite "the rulebook does not explicitly tell you that you must override the rules in the BRB when a codex, aka more specific, presents a rule that directly contradicts the said rule in the BRB. It is the general consensus that we interpret said contradiction to be intended, and it does provide a special exception to the rule in BRB. This is what is commonly referred to as RAI - clearly, the auther had intended such alterations to a rule, if not would not have written it at all. Here, we try to interpret the authors decision to specifically contradict the existing, therefore it should have the merit of being able to overwrite the said rule."
Then by the extension of this argument, one can also begin to question the intent of what is currently being referred to as a "reminder text." Did the author truly mean the said texts to be a reminder of the rules in the BRB, or was it intended as a "more specific" version of the rule to the exisitng ruleset? If former, did the author forget to add a reminder text for all applicable units in question? If not, where did the author draw the line in which 'to remind' and 'not to remind?'
It is important to note that all unit entries with the transport rule that may and/or must begin the game in reserves, aka 'in reserves', has these so called "reminder text" that specifies that said transport may begin the game with units embarked in it. The rules for transports in the BRB does not fully cover the interaction between transports being set up in reserves - it merely stipulates when a transport is set up, it may begin with units inside it. We question, why has the author gone out of his/her way to specifically remind us of the rule that already exists in the BRB? Once we begin to question the intent of the author, we begin to see a clear line of precedents and thought process of the author. There must be a reason for the consistency of the existence of these "reminder texts" on the unit entries with the transport rule that may/must begin the game in reserves, and only the unit entries with the transport rule that may/must begin the game in reserves. These reminder texts do not appear in the unit entries for transports that may not begin the game in reserves.
Perhaps, much in lines with our interpretations when the rule in the RBR and rule in the codex are in direct contradiction to another, these so called "reminder texts" are not reminders at all, but an addition to the existing rules in the BRB that has not covered in full the interaction of transports in reserves. So, without prejudice, we can infer that unless the transport has been given specific permissions via special rules, aka 'reminder texts', it may not carry units inside it while in reserve.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/12/26 18:45:16
mchammadad wrote: BCB is correct in the ruling. Tactical Reserves in the matched play rules only states that units have the ability to use 'deep strike' rules. And that no less than half of the units in your army must be deployed on the battlefield
Rule here:
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
The Tallarn Stratagem allows you to place 3 TALLARN units in ambush. Following it's restrictions of how far from the table edge and enemy they have to be.
Rule for transport here:
TRANSPORTS
Some models are noted as being a TRANSPORT on their datasheet – these vehicles ferry warriors to the front line, providing them with speed and protection. The following rules describe how units can embark and disembark from transports, and how they are used to move their passengers across the battlefield. Note that a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn.
Transport Capacity: All transports have a transport capacity listed on their datasheet. This determines how many friendly models, and of what type, they can carry. A model’s transport capacity can never be exceeded.
When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.
Disembark:Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).
Note that the rules stating units embarked on a vehicle is actually before the EMBARK rules, it's only requirement being that you must declare that unit is embarked in the vehicle when it's set up.
Hence we return back to the Tactical Reserves ruling above it.
Make no mistake, these are the rules from the CORE RULEBOOK word for word. There is nothing wrong with BCB's following of the ruleset. He is following the rules as written.
Does it sound cheese? Maybe. Could other armies do this? of course they could. Is it illegal? Absolutely no way is it illegal
Also. for those that thought that this would fall under reinforcements? The unit has already been purchased for the army, in no way are these considered reinforcements
Your interpretation is that units in Transports are the same location as the Transport. They are neither in Reserves nor On the Battlefield.
Tactical Reserves stipulates that any unit that has not arrived On the Battlefield by the end of the Third Battleround are destroyed.
So by your reasoning allowing the Ogryn to deploy in a Ambushing Tallarn Transport, any unit that hasn't disembarked by the end of the Third Battleround is destroyed.
mchammadad wrote: BCB is correct in the ruling. Tactical Reserves in the matched play rules only states that units have the ability to use 'deep strike' rules. And that no less than half of the units in your army must be deployed on the battlefield
Rule here:
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
The Tallarn Stratagem allows you to place 3 TALLARN units in ambush. Following it's restrictions of how far from the table edge and enemy they have to be.
Rule for transport here:
TRANSPORTS
Some models are noted as being a TRANSPORT on their datasheet – these vehicles ferry warriors to the front line, providing them with speed and protection. The following rules describe how units can embark and disembark from transports, and how they are used to move their passengers across the battlefield. Note that a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn.
Transport Capacity: All transports have a transport capacity listed on their datasheet. This determines how many friendly models, and of what type, they can carry. A model’s transport capacity can never be exceeded.
When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.
Disembark:Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180).
Note that the rules stating units embarked on a vehicle is actually before the EMBARK rules, it's only requirement being that you must declare that unit is embarked in the vehicle when it's set up.
Hence we return back to the Tactical Reserves ruling above it.
Make no mistake, these are the rules from the CORE RULEBOOK word for word. There is nothing wrong with BCB's following of the ruleset. He is following the rules as written.
Does it sound cheese? Maybe. Could other armies do this? of course they could. Is it illegal? Absolutely no way is it illegal
Also. for those that thought that this would fall under reinforcements? The unit has already been purchased for the army, in no way are these considered reinforcements
Your interpretation is that units in Transports are the same location as the Transport. They are neither in Reserves nor On the Battlefield. Tactical Reserves stipulates that any unit that has not arrived On the Battlefield by the end of the Third Battleround are destroyed. So by your reasoning allowing the Ogryn to deploy in a Ambushing Tallarn Transport, any unit that hasn't disembarked by the end of the Third Battleround is destroyed.
Do you seriously think this is correct?
RaW it's totally correct. This has been known since 8th edition launched. You're not magically finding anything new that hasn't been discussed multiple times before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/26 18:06:45
tneva82 wrote: Wonder how many pages this keeps going since this cannot be answered definitely without gw saying how itworks
Except it can. The RaW is clear and well defined. The problem is people making up rules, making up definitions and people arguing 'intent'.
This thread has been exhausted however, with all viewpoints, both rules as written and rules as 'intended' being laid out in full multiple times
9 pages prove it cannot. If i could it wouldn#p go on this long
I'm sorry, but I do disagree with this. A number of people arguing for one interpretation of the rule does not necessarily prove ambiguity. There are plenty of people that have mis-parsed grammar to support a false interpretation, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is guilty of it at some point.
To the thread, just stop, people. Continue to submit the question to the Rule Query email and hope GW gets back with an answer before March. Until then, discuss with your opponent or TO, get a ruling, and get the feth on with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/26 18:25:48
Does a unit of 3 hellhounds count as one unit for setting up in ambush? For that matter, do 3 Leman Russ battle tanks count as one unit if I buy them as a single unit ?
kaiservonhugal wrote: Does a unit of 3 hellhounds count as one unit for setting up in ambush? For that matter, do 3 Leman Russ battle tanks count as one unit if I buy them as a single unit ?
Yes. Keep in mind you can only take 1 unit of VEHICLES now. You're capped to 3 Russes instead of 9.
kaiservonhugal wrote: Does a unit of 3 hellhounds count as one unit for setting up in ambush? For that matter, do 3 Leman Russ battle tanks count as one unit if I buy them as a single unit ?
Yep. And don't forget you can play the Stratagem more than once if you like.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
kaiservonhugal wrote: Does a unit of 3 hellhounds count as one unit for setting up in ambush? For that matter, do 3 Leman Russ battle tanks count as one unit if I buy them as a single unit ?
Yep. And don't forget you can play the Stratagem more than once if you like.
I thought in matched play you could only use one stratagem per phase, and even though deployment is not a phase it seems unlikely you could purchase a stratagem twice.
davidgr33n wrote: I thought in matched play you could only use one stratagem per phase, and even though deployment is not a phase it seems unlikely you could purchase a stratagem twice.
Explicitly permitted.
Page 215 wrote:The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 08:49:17
NL_Cirrus wrote: I would just like to add, from my reading of the rule, either any unit can be in the transport in ambush, or non could.
Ambush - Tallarn Stratagem Use this Stratagem during deployment. Choose up to three Tallarn units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield (only one of these units can have the Vehicle keyword).. At the end of any of your Movement phases these units can strike from hiding - set each of them up wholly within 7" of any battlefield edge and more than 9" from any enemy models. The units are considered to have moved their maximum distance.
If you'll notice, in addition to being in ambush when you arrive from ambush all of the units must be placed as described in the text above. The stratagem offers no exception to units in transports that are ambushing.
That means any units using the stratagem to ambush cannot be in transports because it is impossible to be in the transport and follow the stratagems rules for setting up when they strike from hiding.
Therefore either
the rules work as BCB says and any unit can be ambushed in inside of the transport,
OR
the rules work as Stephanius suggests and no unit can ever be in a transport that is ambushing, because only units using ambush would be able to embark on it while it is in ambush, but the ambush rule itself would prevent them per above.
You have a good point here about the rest of the Ambush rule; it's a shame that nobody felt like commenting on it last week. It does seem hard to reconcile putting Ogryns into a transport with the requirement to set them up wholly within 7" of any battlefield dege and more than 9" from any enemy models at the same time you are bringing the transport out of Reserves.
So, the way I originally read the stratagem, and the transport rules are as follows –
-Stratagem gets used and a transport is picked as the 1 vehicle and 2 other units get picked.
-This transport is then considered as “set up” in ambush as per the rules of the stratagem.
-Transport rules then kick in stating [q] When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up. [/q]
-1 unit is picked as being embarked in the transport
So, as per the stratagem, you’ve picked and “set up” 3 units via the stratagem, but, because of a rule that is triggered following the “set up” of a transport unit, you are then allowed to declare the embarked units in addition. (Original first look thoughts.)
HOWEVER, as others have pointed out, a new precedent has been set with the Eldar codex that was released after the Guard codex. And that is with the Cloudstrike stratagem.
Cloudstrike specifically states that if you use this stratagem on a transport, [q]all units embarked inside it remain so when it is set up in the clouds. [/q] This, essentially means that permission has been granted specially, to the embarked unit, to also be placed in reserve via the stratagem.
This could be taken to mean that, because the permission was stated on the stratagem, this was previously not allowed in all other similar situations regarding transports and reserves. (drop pods were the only exception due to their special rule)
So, this then becomes a question of “intent” vs “interpretation of RAW”. (yes, RAW can be interpreted in different ways… This entire forum section is proof of that at times.)
Currently, the perceived “intent” of how things works is being driven off the wording of a single stratagem released after the Imperial Guard codex – so, the question has to be asked – What was the interpretation of the rule PRIOR to the Eldar codex being released?
If the original interpretation allowed the interaction due to the sequencing of transport “set up”, then, this is a case of GW messing things up with wording. The use of a deployment stratagem categorically over-rides the Matched Play rules on putting units in reserve – otherwise, RAW you would only be able to select units that already have a “reserve ability” when using the stratagems. And this, of course, makes the stratagems completely pointless.
Transports also work in the same way. Embarked units can only be “embarked” if they meet the requirements of the transport. Once embarked they have no “impact/effect” on the battlefield unless the transport has a special rule allowing them to i.e. Open Topped firing deck. So, for all intent and purpose, they are in “reserve”.
Because we now know that stratagems OVERRIDE the Matched Play reserve rules, we can then draw the conclusion that, units without the innate ability to be deployed in reserve, can sometimes be deployed in reserve.
This, as a result, resolves the issue people are having in regards to “this unit doesn’t have this rule so can’t do this”.
The next question is – “do embarked units take on the characteristics of the transport? i.e do they change from infantry to vehicle?”. From everything we can see rules wise, even though the embarked unit -usually- has no impact on the battlefield, they still retain their own characteristics and keywords.
The problem we therefore face, is one of sequencing and unit count. Is a unit declared as “embarked” before or after set up? Currently, the transport rule implies that the unit is embarked prior to the set-up of the transport, but only declared as being so at the point of the transport being “set up”.
As per the deployment rules, we also know that when you deploy a transport and embarked units, you are making a single “drop selection” that affects 1+x units – something you must be aware off, due to its impact on how many units you are then allowed to put in reserve. This, therefore implies, that because when deployed normally a transport and embarked units counts as multiple units, the same will apply for instances when they are placed into reserve. This, then, concludes that for the purpose of determining how many “units” a transport is, you need to include the sum of the units within it as well.
This then, will have an impact on the number of units selected for the stratagem. As the stratagem states up to 3 units, we know we cannot exceed 3 units. Therefore, as my ramblings above conclude, units within a transport would count towards the allowed 3 units. Now, because these now count towards the allocated amount of units, we then have to look at the next part of the stratagem, which states “Tallarn” units. We have also drawn the conclusion, that while embarked, a unit retains its own rules, characteristics and keywords. This then means, any units embarked within the transport also have to have the “Tallarn” keyword in order to be eligible to be used as part of the stratagem.
Therefore, I can only conclude, that in this instance, Ogryns would not be able to be deployed within the transport that is ambushing, due to them not being “Tallarn”, and, any eligible units embarked would count towards the maximum 3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 14:35:14
All units in ambush have to be set up within 7" of any battlefield edge. That requirement cannot possibly be fulfilled by disembarking, since disembarking would have to happen before the transport moves, and an arriving transport already counts as having moved. Therefore, a Tallarn infantry unit in ambush can't be set up inside a transport (just as NL_Cirrus stated earlier).
Following your logic, a transport in ambush simply cannot have any units inside. This could of course be intended, but i'll stick to BCB's interpretation for the time being.
