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So, I'm half way through Heros of the Space Marines (HotSM) and I have to say.....I'm not a hppy bunny.

While driving to work, I was trying to figure out what was bothering me with the whole thing, and mile by mile it started to dawn on me what the problem could be......the writers.

The biggest problem with most, if not all, SM novels is that the writers don't seem to have one set idea on how the Marines characters should be....on the one hand you havethe general GW propaganda, you know the yadda yadda about Marines being super awesome, blah blah blah.....and then you get to the novels (supossedly, the place where the fluff is given flesh and bone ) and suddenly the SM know FEAR, they act like cowards, they're unruley(?) they lack disciplines, they lack resolve....in most stories they even lack the basic courage a Guard would have, considering the massive advantage the SM have over a normal humans....

...and as areader I'm sick of it! In most stories the Imperial Marines come across as if they should be Stormtroopers, rather than warrior elite monks. And the Chaos breed seem like animals, mindless, directionless animals who only seem to want to "destroy the Astartes homeworlds" etc etc

Does anyone else feel the disappointment I feel when-ever I pick up one of these "novels"?

Getting the first two Dawn of War novels made me die inside. The first Death Watch novel made me want to hang myself and the sheer stupidity shown in the Soul Drinker novels has made me seriously think about committing mass-genocide to protect people from Ben Counter.

Graham McNeill's Ultra novels made up for this though. And Dan has written some good Marine stuff as well, but Graham is the man when it comes to good marine themed novels.

Delephont wrote:So, I'm half way through Heros of the Space Marines (HotSM) and I have to say.....I'm not a hppy bunny.

While driving to work, I was trying to figure out what was bothering me with the whole thing, and mile by mile it started to dawn on me what the problem could be......the writers.

The biggest problem with most, if not all, SM novels is that the writers don't seem to have one set idea on how the Marines characters should be....on the one hand you havethe general GW propaganda, you know the yadda yadda about Marines being super awesome, blah blah blah.....and then you get to the novels (supossedly, the place where the fluff is given flesh and bone ) and suddenly the SM know FEAR, they act like cowards, they're unruley(?) they lack disciplines, they lack resolve....in most stories they even lack the basic courage a Guard would have, considering the massive advantage the SM have over a normal humans....

...and as areader I'm sick of it! In most stories the Imperial Marines come across as if they should be Stormtroopers, rather than warrior elite monks. And the Chaos breed seem like animals, mindless, directionless animals who only seem to want to "destroy the Astartes homeworlds" etc etc

Does anyone else feel the disappointment I feel when-ever I pick up one of these "novels"?

While it's nice that you buy into the propaganda, I'm trying to remember who said it, but one of the minds at GW said, 'The narrative viewpoints in the codices are always biased, and rarely true.'

BrookM wrote:Getting the first two Dawn of War novels made me die inside. The first Death Watch novel made me want to hang myself and the sheer stupidity shown in the Soul Drinker novels has made me seriously think about committing mass-genocide to protect people from Ben Counter.

Graham McNeill's Ultra novels made up for this though. And Dan has written some good Marine stuff as well, but Graham is the man when it comes to good marine themed novels.

Yep i'm on pg like 140 of the souldrinker novel and its like wtf?

The Ultramarine novels are good. If you like dark angels "Angels of Darkness" was a great one for me. Daemon World is very cool. Brothers of the Snake is a good one. Most of the Horus Heresy.

BrookM wrote:Soul Drinkers suck, and Graham is the man

Seconded

Believe it or not, for all they try to pump them up to be superhuman, there are still parts of space marines that are human.

If all they are in literature is superhuman killing machines whose only limit is how much they can kill, count me out.

I prefer a character with some flaws to him.

Both Dan and Graham put down interesting characters. Graham's Uriel and Pasanius are great characters, if a bit cardboard cut-out at times but the Killing Ground has been a great marine novel that wasn't so mariney. Dan's Iron Snakes novel does steer more towards the "RAWR SUCK MY SUPERHUMAN BAWLS" but with fun characters (some non-Astartes and with bewbs), something he is known for. I especially like how the head librarian bemoans that there are two types of battle brother: ones with a sense of humour and those without.

Well, that's kinda the point, isn't it? I mean, if they were all bland unthinking, unstoppable superhuman killing machines, a novel featuring even one of them would be pretty boring. (Case in point, the scene in which the Space Marine turns up in the Last Chancer trilogy.)

So writers make them flawed. That way the story is more interesting and the reader can empathise with said eight-foot tall killing machine.

Besides, some Space Marines aren't perfect (and I use that definition loosely). Space Wolves, for example, are unruly and undisciplined, as someone complained about. Dark Angel marines (at least those in the know) are probably full of doubt. As a whole, Space Marines aren't exclusively loyal to the Emperor (times two, just to number the obvious examples) so if you get down to an individual basis, well... the loyalties vary, shall we say.

There's flawed and there's horrible cliché. The Grey Knights of Ben Counter fall into this with gross stupidity and boredom. No GK has ever doubted himself and yet Alaric must do so only to regain his faith at the last moment and say the magic words that fix everything while clicking his heels together; hello Cleveland!

Pasanius from the Ultra novels became an annoying whining prick in the third novel but thankfully he has recovered from that and regained his stupid yet funny remarks.

Good (pre-heresy) Marine fiction can be found in the Tales of Heresy anthology. The Space Wolves story was a good read for starters, especially the ending.

it is really hard to write about GK, because they have erase the memories, to become immune to deamon thing.

i feel it is hard to write anything about the codex chapter, in many people's mind their are just mindless killing machine.

if i had a chance to write a 40K novel, i would use IG as main character, using their view to descirbe the SM.

Space Marines are not just mindless killing machines. They have depth. Some are a little more on the mindless killing machine side. (Pre Heresy World Eaters)

Then you have ones like the Space Wolves who bond with their brothers.

Being an Astartes does not mean you are wiped of emotions like happiness and fear. It just means that in the thick of things, you don't let that gak get in your way when you need to get the job done. Some do it better than others.

But back on topic, the only SM Novels I have read have been about the Blood Angels. I thought they were alright, nothing overly amazing. But then again, I don't have anything to compare them to besides the fluff.

BrookM wrote: Dan's Iron Snakes novel does steer more towards the "RAWR SUCK MY SUPERHUMAN BAWLS" but with fun characters (some non-Astartes and with bewbs), something he is known for. I especially like how the head librarian bemoans that there are two types of battle brother: ones with a sense of humour and those without.

Too be fair I think that was Dan's first go at writing SM, and it did have fun characters and was fairly entertaining. I don't remember the bewbs bit, I do remember the one ruler lady having a crush on the main SM.

As for Graham's stuff I haven't gotten to read much of it as I refuse to read the Ultramarine book I was given because it is in the middle of the series and don't know what's leading up to it, and I haven't read all of the Horus Heresy books.

I'm currently almost done Descent of Angels and I read the original Deathwing story. I've liked how those've been so far. I'll probably pick up Fallen Angels just since it falls in line with the other one. Is there any other good Dark Angels fiction beyond those and Angels of Darkness? I really like the stories behind them. The characters've shown real depth.

As a former Salamanders player, I'm sort of interested in the upcoming Nick Kyme series that's coming out. Apparently there's a prequel story of sorts in Heroes of the Space Marines.

For those of you who have read the Anthology, how does Kyme's handling of the Salamanders compare with Graham MacNeill's handling of the Ultras in Nightbringer, Gav Thorpes handling of the Dark Angels in Angels of Darkness otr to any of the author's take on Space Marines in the whole Horus Heresy series? Those are my only Black Library reference points, other than the mostly Marine free Eisenhorn and the first Commissar Cain novel (For The Emperor? Something like that.)

I did find it amusing that the lead story in Heroes of the Space Marines was one about Honsou.

I'm a big Honsou fan. I think the next one will be a "real" book when he kicks off his next plan: