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So, someone please help me through this as im either missing something or found something which doesnt make a ton of sense. As my marine army (1500 pt) will be led by Shrike, I was reading he has master crafted lightning claws (2x) with rending. Great, I get to re-roll a missed hit and wound(s). His lightning claws however also have the rending ability. As I began to think about this, what does that really matter? Lightning claws are already power weapons, so you arent conferred a save from them anyway (which is what rending does, blocks a save). Now, rending also give an extra d3 armor pen, but who cares, he is S4 (not going to get into that rear armor value of 10). The only case I can see it really having ANY value is if I attack something with Toughness >7, which a 6 will still wound (when normally S4 cant wound T8).

Am I missing anything?

the only point is killing vehicles. if you encounter a dreadnought, shrike has a chance, albiet small one, of actually penetrating it in hand to hand. (4+6+3 = profit)

alot of daemons players give their bloodcrusher leaders this for that very reason... its better to have a chance against walkers than be crushed against them without a hope.

In addition to adding to your ability to kill vehicles, it also allows you to attempt to wound models, whose high toughness would normally allow them to shrug off your attacks.

For instance, Captain Shrike (Strength 4) can wound Wraithlords (Toughness 8) if he rolls a 6 to wound, because he has Rending.

IIRC, if a rending weapon rolls a 6, it automatically wounds, regardless of toughness. So Shrike can kill C'tan and Wraithlords, yay.

Dang masked Japanese banditos!!!

ultra vulkan wrote: he is S4 (not going to get into that rear armor value of 10).

6+4=10 you can glance the vehicle, then with the extra d3 you may be able to do something other than get Crew Stunned or Shaken.

ultra vulkan wrote:The only case I can see it really having ANY value is if I attack something with Toughness >7, which a 6 will still wound (when normally S4 cant wound T8).

Am I missing anything?

Getting penetrating hits on vehicles is nice... and you really can't value the "wound high-Toughness units" part enough when your Eldar opponent brings up three Wraithlords.

The reason it has rending is twofold:
1) A roll of 6 equals an automatic wound, even if it cannot normally be hurt (for a S4 model this would mean a T8+ model)
2) Against vehicles, it allows you to roll an extra D3 if you roll a 6, resulting in a 10-13 Threat Range.

1: A rending hit wounds auto. (MC killing)
2: Extra D3 armour pen means a fair bit actually, seems pointless, but it served heralds of khorne well.

Your correct... Thanks! I was thinking over the issue and yes, Shrike basically gets a guaranteed pen hit on a av 10 with a re-roll to hit, re-rolls to wound... Now my next question im looking into, If he infiltrates with my TH/SS assault termies, and lets say im forced to start 18 inches away, is it worth letting him run out on his out with his possible 19-24 inch assault range and let him jump on those Leman Russ tanks himself... I only say this because the terminators threat range is anywhere from 13 to 18 inches, so they may not get the coveted first round assault (if I can hide them, I can infiltrate 12 inches away), but they still benefit from infiltrate.

Your correct... Thanks! I was thinking over the issue and yes, Shrike basically gets a guaranteed pen hit on a av 10 with a re-roll to hit, re-rolls to wound... Now my next question im looking into, If he infiltrates with my TH/SS assault termies, and lets say im forced to start 18 inches away, is it worth letting him run out on his out with his possible 19-24 inch assault range and let him jump on those Leman Russ tanks himself... I only say this because the terminators threat range is anywhere from 13 to 18 inches, so they may not get the coveted first round assault (if I can hide them, I can infiltrate 12 inches away), but they still benefit from infiltrate.

ultra vulkan wrote:Your correct... Thanks! I was thinking over the issue and yes, Shrike basically gets a guaranteed pen hit on a av 10 with a re-roll to hit, re-rolls to wound... Now my next question im looking into, If he infiltrates with my TH/SS assault termies, and lets say im forced to start 18 inches away, is it worth letting him run out on his out with his possible 19-24 inch assault range and let him jump on those Leman Russ tanks himself... I only say this because the terminators threat range is anywhere from 13 to 18 inches, so they may not get the coveted first round assault (if I can hide them, I can infiltrate 12 inches away), but they still benefit from infiltrate.

-Nitpick- He cannot infiltrate with them. He can join them in reserve and allow them to outflank, but you cannot deploy them as infiltrators, as in order to join them (and thus give them infiltrate) he must deploy in coherency with them, which means they must have already been deployed, and as they do not have infiltrate at that point, they cannot infiltrate.

So not only is it not possible rulewise, it is about as Fluffy as a Brick.

RE: Shrike infiltrating with a squad...

While Gwar! may have the strictest RAW correct here, RAP/RAI is pretty much universal in allowing Shrike to Infiltrate with a unit (thus allowing Terms/Assault Marines, etc... to infiltrate).

kartofelkopf wrote:RE: Shrike infiltrating with a squad...

While Gwar! may have the strictest RAW correct here, RAP/RAI is pretty much universal in allowing Shrike to Infiltrate with a unit (thus allowing Terms/Assault Marines, etc... to infiltrate).

RaI = RaW unless an Errata says otherwise.

RaP as well I have found to also be RaW, but that's just me being crazy and playing by the rules.

kartofelkopf wrote:RE: Shrike infiltrating with a squad...

While Gwar! may have the strictest RAW incorrect here, HYWPI is pretty much universal in allowing Shrike to Infiltrate with a unit (thus allowing Terms/Assault Marines, etc... to infiltrate).

fixed it for you

"RaI = RaW unless an Errata says otherwise."


So, Thrakka's special ability is RAI meant to do nothing?


That's a ludicrous claim. The author's intent can often be derived from the text, independent of additional material.

Besides, the RAW is not exactly compelling. p48 under special rules gives a contrapositive approach to ICs and Infiltrators--

"For example, if an independent character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit cannot infiltrate."

If ICs can't join a squad until it is physically placed on the table, this rule makes no sense-- the IC would be already deployed before the infiltrators are set up, and if the infiltrators are set up during normal deployment, then he can join them normally.

RAW is not as clear cut in this case as some would make it out to be.

kartofelkopf wrote:So, Thrakka's special ability is RAI meant to do nothing?

Yes. When they changed how Fleet Works, they intended for this ability to stop working. If they had intended it to work, they would have put a note in the Errata or in the Fleet Rule.

RAW is not as clear cut in this case as some would make it out to be.

Except that it is.

Lol.

Mod: Please do not spam pointless posts into threads, it is against forum rules.



Thank you.

I guess that's a warning for me?

To expand on my previous comment- (quick aside-- spamming tends to be multiple posts, and laughing at a ludicrous statement can often be an acceptable response)

I find the point you made laughable, Gwar!, as a codex written with 5e in mind would hardly make a point of having an ability that ceased to function altogether.

There is not a TO in the country, or a game group that I've ever encountered (and with a military background, I've had the opportunity to play a variety of opponents) that would play it that way.

RAI > RAW when it comes to the actual game. And telling someone that comes here for a rules question ONLY the RAW is doing them a grave disservice-- you should tell them (your view of) the RAW, and also mention what the RAI/RAP is. Otherwise, your advice is not helpful and merely pedantic.

kartofelkopf wrote:
There is not a TO in the country, or a game group that I've ever encountered (and with a military background, I've had the opportunity to play a variety of opponents) that would play it that way.

I wouldn't doubt it if there was a some TO, somewhere, that wouldn't allow it.

kartofelkopf wrote:
RAI > RAW when it comes to the actual game.

That all depends on how you want to play. Either you follow the rules to the letter or allow for some leniency due to GW's writing.

The mere fact that we're having this discussion at all means that RAI>RAW-- because where RAW are unclear, there has to be some degree of interpretation.

I'm not opposed to RAW (I mean, really-- it's the RULES). I just think that RAI/RAP are vastly more important, and when someone comes to YMDC asking for help with a rules question, pointing out RAW to the exclusion of RAI is unhelpful to that person, and harmful to the hobby as a whole.

Except bringing up RaP is pretty unhelpful too. For some people, RaP, transports don't count for killpoints.

I'm still not at all swayed by RAW in any way keeping Shrike from being deployed in coherency(and Infiltrating) with Assault Terminators who are deployed at the same time he is deployed - there is no rule that says "deploy each unit one at a time," nor do the IC rules say "deploy in coherency with a unit already deployed." In fact, they say "begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." Since Shrike is beginning the game with the Terminators, they have the benefits of his rule.

Of course, I am in the camp of "inventing complex order of operations issues that don't exist in the actual text is inherently wrong," which is not terribly fashionable in YMDC.

As an aside: LC do NOT let you reroll to penetrate vehicles, as it is not a roll to wound.

jwolf wrote:I'm still not at all swayed by RAW in any way keeping Shrike from being deployed in coherency(and Infiltrating) with Assault Terminators who are deployed at the same time he is deployed - there is no rule that says "deploy each unit one at a time," nor do the IC rules say "deploy in coherency with a unit already deployed." In fact, they say "begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." Since Shrike is beginning the game with the Terminators, they have the benefits of his rule.

Of course, I am in the camp of "inventing complex order of operations issues that don't exist in the actual text is inherently wrong," which is not terribly fashionable in YMDC.

Please read the rules for deploying infiltrators, then come back. You will see why Shrike Cannot Infiltrate with Terminators once you read that rule.

jwolf, so the paragraph directly under INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS on page 92 doesn't clearly spell out a sequence for deployment?

solkan wrote:jwolf, so the paragraph directly under INFILTRATORS AND SCOUTS on page 92 doesn't clearly spell out a sequence for deployment?

Obviously not! Please stop being so Unfashionable (or fashionable, I can't quite get which one you are supposed to be).

NO.

Shrike and any unit he deems to join can infiltrate.

Exept in GWARhammer 40k where IC + unit isnt done before the game.

1hadhq wrote:NO.

Shrike and any unit he deems to join can infiltrate.

Exept in Warhammer 40k where IC + unit isnt done before the game.

I fixed it for you.

IC+Unit is NOT done before the game, at least not in 5th. Read the rules for characters. In order to start the game with them, he must be DEPLOYED in coherency. Since the Terminators do not have Infiltrate until he is joined to them, they cannot elect to deploy in the Infiltrator step. Because Shrike joins them before the Deploy Infiltrators step, he cannot deploy again as he is already deployed.

Gwar! has still failed to explain why the "Special Rules" on p48 specifically address an IC joining a squad with Infiltrate before being deployed as a single unit.

But, then again, if it doesn't immediately support his INTERPRETATION of RAW, he ignores it.