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Well, I've been looking at finally branching out from Space Marines in favor of an IG army. Mostly because I like the Renegade Miniatures WW1 line shown below. I've decided that I want to do a little different IG army than most and am curious what people think about building an Army that can max maximum use of the Orders system. I'm considering a core of:

CCS, 4x Melta, Regimental Standard, Astropath, Master of the Fleet, Vox Caster
PCS, 3x Flamer, 1x Heavy Flamer, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad with GL, AC, Vox Caster (x4)
Heavy Weapon Squad with 3 Lascannons (x2)
Heavy Weapon Squad with 3 Mortars
Special Weapon Squad with Demo Charge, 2 Melta
Special Weapon Squad with Demo Charge, 2 Flamer

Second Troop choice will probably be a second loaded platoon or a couple of veteran squads. I would then round out the list by adding a couple of sentinals and some Leman Russes along with a small artillery battery (either Basilisks or Griffons). Other than a complete lack of assault capability, what do you think? I can pump out 3 orders a turn to start, 4 if I add the next platoon, which should make the lascannons fairly effective against tanks and there are alot of autocannons in the list as it is for transport busting. Main concern is adding a little mobility somewhere to help take objectives.

HWS and SWS will not benefit too much from orders, as they have such crap Ld.

I have played with platoons a long time, and I've been extremly underwhelmed by the GL. I know people think 15pts for a plasma is expensive, but you get so much more milage out of them. AC+plasma compliments nicely for rhino popping, and as your infantry will support each other, they can even take down harder targets. I've taken down god-fexes with my platoons before.

For your artillery battery, I would look to the manticore and medusa, those two (especially the manticore) are made of awesome

Can't go wrong with russes

Sentinels are one of the coolest units in the codex, I've used them with great success in 4th ed. They have lots of tactical uses, and work perfectly to delay charges on your gunline. The problem with them, is that they are a bit overcosted now, and that there is so much better things in FA. If you won't be using dogs or valks however, I would go with the sentinels.

Kinda big ears on those guys

Infantry Platoon
PCS
+Some form of somthing, AC/3x Sniper

3(+)x Infantry squad
+3x Lascannon
+3x Grenade Launcher
+1x Vox

What we have here is the proper way to field lascannon in infantry. Heavy-weapon-squads just suck-as(-much-as) when fielded with expensive high-priority lascannons.

It costs 230pts to field and whilst this is +100pts more than a Vendetta Gunship, it is vastly more survivable. Its also scoring. Assuming strong CCS support, it will also have TL-BS3 and re-rolls to orders & morale tests.

@Razerous:

I've seen that very squad, with the grenade launchers dropped and a commissar added, do very well.

I do it a slightly different way, like so;

PCS - 3 GL, vox, chimera with ML/HF 105

Infantry Squad - PW, autocannon, flamer, vox, commissar w/ PW 125
Infantry Squad - PW, autocannon, flamer 75
Infantry Sqaud - PW, autocannon, flamer 75

I always lol every time I look at my army list and see that I paid 125 pts for 10 BS3 guardsmen and a commissar, but this unit is nasty as all hell. Plunk them on an objective, rain autocannon fire on transports for turn 1 and 2, then rediculous amounts of FRFSRF lasgun fire on infantry from there on. The flamers are probably removable as they're primarily just a scary stick to shake at opposing horde armies, while the PW are actually a viable assault protection tool; I've seen this unit chop up TH/SS terminator units, assault marines, you name it. As long as no unit makes it to them unscathed, you can either win or hold out all afternoon.

The PCS just hangs out doing one or more of the following;
-using it's to provide cover
-issuing FRFSRF
-putting 3 S6 hits on something most turns (that's a roll on the damage table for AV11 a turn, on average)
-waving a big scary HF at things to keep them back

I won't derail this thread into another 'lol guardsmen swarms' thread, though it's a perfectly viable unit now. I usually only run actual infantry platoons as above (stubborn blobs), or as the fantastically cheap throwaway scoring unit of 10 guardsmen and a flamer for 55 pts.

That's a fair use The Defenestrator, I would consider using this type of squad as a bulwark for my lascannon team (by either having a secondary platoon or a small 20/2x lascannon blob squad).

Although, running the numbers I dont see how that Pw/autocannon squad can be so effective against heavy infantry. With the force multiplication of a priest and possibly a furious-charge giver then I know Infantry platoons can be murderous sponges of man-flesh!

Its just; Without the charge your loosing attacks, without a priest your loosing more attacks and ofcource without I4/Str4 your loosing guardsmen to I4 initial attacks and your having a tougher time to wound T4. You dont want to charge, because you have spent those 30pts on autocannons is worth standing still to shoot (along with a FRFSRF lasguns, you deal more damage first than you will with extra attacks (Again, after loosing guardsmen @ I4).

So with that in mind, why not focous on power-weapon assault squads where you drop the heavy weapons in favour of a priest. Otherwise, if you just want a squad that wont run away, drop all the power weapons and keep the commissar.

Im not a fan of PCS's in chimeras unless your gonna field alot of other chimera (more veterans) which wont be likely if your spending points on larger blob-squads whilst keeping points aside for some heavy-hitting firepower. Perhaps if you field a fair few Valkyrie/Hellhound variants then sure.

my view on the platton is ...

Infantry Squads are the best place to take multiple Heavy weapons. Not bad in CC if they blob up with power weapons.

Heavy weapon squads die to easily but if its drawing away str6+ weapons from your tanks then its a good thing. Never up grade them sit them in cover and morta away all game.

Special weapon squads ... 1-3 Demo charges drop it out of valk. and remove a unit from the board. Then they die.

Conscripsts ... meat shield. Throw them out and hope they get shot at. If they get to charge some one they'll probably do some damage simply down to weight of numbers.

I like the suggestion on switching to plasma guns in my static squads. Probably gonna follow up on that.

Does anyone use 10 man squads in isolation now then? While the advantage to blobbing is good, I lose the ability to fire at different targets and that would definately hurt against some of my regular opponents. I think adding Voxes to the heavy weapon squads will offset the low LD enough to make it worthwhile when I need to give them an order.

Wouldn't 4 HW squads with lascannons provide enough target saturation if I added a second platoon? I'd think people would have trouble taking all of them out before some damage could be done. A couple mortar HWS in support should flesh out the anti infantry.

I pictured the SW squads supporting a storm-trooper like advance on an objective but I could see getting them a few transports for suicide missions. Just don't want to commit heavy on transports when I plan on being 90% foot slogging.

PanzerLeader wrote:Does anyone use 10 man squads in isolation now then? While the advantage to blobbing is good, I lose the ability to fire at different targets and that would definately hurt against some of my regular opponents.

Blobbing up is situational. If you know your going to be playing KPs you always want to blob. If you know that your enemy has lots of close combat units ... you want to blob. If your enemy taking mech you plonk each unit down one at a time with good LOS from your heavy weapons. Then just shoot at his tanks till A you've stunded them all and/or you've destroyed it (stun every one then concentrate the remaining fire to kill)

PanzerLeader wrote:I like the suggestion on switching to plasma guns in my static squads. Probably gonna follow up on that.

A couple mortar HWS in support should flesh out the anti infantry.

I like the idea of using Plasma/AC combination instead of the usual GL/AC. But my d6 blow up more of my plasma troopers than my opponent =(

Did you make any good experiences with mortar HWS? For myself, Autocannon HWS have proven much more viable.
My opponents usually use the nearly 2" between their models to stick in formation so that the small template only hits 1 model at a time.
The AC has superior strength, AP and you can pop transports with it, if your opponent plays mech.

When I use platoons, I use separate squads. I feel the biggest flaw of the blob, is that you can't throw squads in the way of assaults.

You can give the blob a commissar, and yes it will then stand there for a while, but you don't really want that, cause you have nothing to take advantage of a protracted combat, you want combat to end in the first round, so your opponent is left standing in front of all your guns.

With separate squads, you can advance one ahead of the gunline when the enemy gets closer, let it take the charge and die, and then kill the offending enemy unit. Assault units are often pts heavy, so you often trade 80ish pts for 200+.

In a KP mission, you can blob without commissar, but I would not expect to get much actual use out of the squads. They will get 1-2 turns of firing, then get charged and die. Sure, you only give up one KP, but I feel the cost is greater than the gain.

I only see a good use of blobs if you either:
1: kit them out for combat (lots of power weapons, meltas/flamers, commissar (+ Straken/priest/Yarrik))
2: have some sort of counter-attack (RR's, ogryns, cc CCS) to take advantage of the tarpit

Both of these cost quite a lot, and it seems, would not fit in your army. I would go for separate squads 90% of the time.

@ Emperor's Servant: I have zero experience playing as IG. 9 years of 40K, all with the same DIY SM chapter. I'm actually very reluctant to branch out, but I like the look of the WWI British and want to try a different kind of IG list. A light infantry regiment ala Catachans could be fun. I figure dropping 3 blast templates on a unit should cause a decent number of hits with an average scatter, as sometimes units will be at less then maximum coherency to benefit from terrain/cover.

@ Illumini: I could use some kind of counter charge unit, like Ogryn or Rough Riders. I'm mostly trying to get that light infantry feel. Massed platoons, mebbe some cav, and a couple of tanks/artillery in support.

@ All: How would this concept work in terms of strategy? For the core: 1 CCS, 1 Platoon with 4 Infantry squads with AC/PG, 2 HWS with Lascannons, 1 HWS with Mortars or ACs, 2 SWS, and 1 Platoon with 4 Infantry squads with Flamers, 2 HWS with Lascannons, 1 HWS with Mortars or AC, 2 SWS. The basic plan would be to have the HWS and one platoon set up on home objectives in support while the second platoon along with all four SWS pushes up to other objectives. It would definately force me to be aggressive. But it would also give me potentially 20 scoring units, so something should still be alive.

Do you want an all infantry army, or a mainly infantry army?

An all infantry army will be a challenge, but it can be very good. Would not recommend this approach if you'll be going to tournaments with the army though, it will take time to move 150 guys around (but this seems to be more of a theme army?)

An all infantry army could work with the basic you described, but I would consider some other elements.

I would seriously consider Al'Rahem for the second platoon, and move all HW squads into the other one. Then you can have your base platoon, with 4-5 squads, backed by 5 HWS, CCS and maybe some armoured sentinels

The second platoon would be infantry squads and SWS's, and would outflank - an thereby be much closer to the objectives on the other side of the field without having taken any casualities.

You could support the outflankers with scout sentinels

Veterans could be used in support of both elements, either with camo in the firebase (with las/AC + 3x plasma) or by outflanking with the other platoon (and then they could load up on meltas to handle tanks etc.)


And you don't really need a counter-charge unit. In 4th, it was needed, because of consolidation into new combats, but now, I feel it is better to just use sacrifical squads and fire fire fire. Ogryns are also too expensive for what they do, while RR's are good, but take up a FA slot that can be used for so much other goodies

Definately more of a theme army. The Marines are for competitive play.

I really like the Al'Rahem idea. Is it one roll for the platoon or per squad? Either way, that would definately be a decent assault force with over 60 models coming on to the table. I also like the veterans with camo cloaks. Should work out well.

Its gonna be a mostly infantry army. I could see myself using a few sentinels and some MBTs, mainly because the Leman Russ family is cool and a main stay of the guard. While only having a few (2-3) tanks provides a focus for enemy AT fire, I mostly want to include them just because I like them. Yeah, definately a theme army. I think I mostly want the WWI attack feel---waves of infantry supported by a few tanks and massive artillery barrages (hence mortars).

So we're looking at say:

CCS

Platoon with 4 squads (AC/PG), 5 HWS (3 lascannon, 2 mortar)

Platoon led by Al'Rahem with 4 squads (PGs), 5 SWS (3 with meltas, 2 with flamers, all with a demo charge)

2 Leman Russ MBTs

2 Basilisks

3 Scout Sentinels with 2 AC, 1 HF

Gotta do the points later, but I'd be happy with about 2K for a fun army. Still 140 infantry models, with 75 of them outflanking (sweet!). The Lemans and Basilisks can throw down some heavier fire and the sentineals provide some ranged anti-tank punch for Al'Rahem's crew and have the heavy flamer just in case.

As a rough core, would this list work? Would it be competitive in fun games? I don't mind losing, but I don't want it to be a push over either.

Panzer,

Yes, your list looks like it will be very effective in both pickup games and competitive games (well, in tournaments maybe you should toss in 1 vendetta-vet squad to increase your competitiveness). But 4 tanks and 81 infantry (with an astropath) in your DZ shooting and 75 outflankers and a pair of sentinels outflanking is a serious army. Just keep your tanks away from your infantry in case of 6's on a pen--IG don't get the nifty saves that you are used to with SMurfs.

I have been having loads of fun with Al'Rahem since the new codex came out. He really gives the guard tactical flexibility and often puts the opponent on their back foot. I usually run him with a 35-trooper platoon (sometimes mounted sometimes not). His PCS gets 4 meltaguns--I find it more useful than the heavy flamer since he can use "Bring it Down" for the meltaguns ona tank. Also, the line squads in the outflanking platoon get ACs and flamers. The AC's are for those annoying games where my astropath screws up and I show up on the wrong board edge far away from the enemy--those 30 extra points are thus only used about in about 1 our of every 5 or so games but its nice to not have to walk across the board to be useful in those instances.

Al'Rahem makes any platoon into a superb harassment unit. The platoon usually ends up sacrificing themselves so that my gun line can shoot some more and then saunter onto objectives. Given the higher size of your outflanking platoon your Al'Rahem platoon has better odds of surviving than mine.

Also, I have been having fun with scout sentinels since 5th edition. They will die, but before they do die they will get some amazing rear and side armor shots in and they can always leap into assault with enemy assault units heading for your line (powerfists kill 'em dead but will usually take a turn or 2).

Note that I have never had too much fun with heavy flamers on sentinels. Ranged heavy weaponry just grants you so much flexibility--and Al'Rahem's platoon has oodles of flamers anyway. (Autocannons have been my preference since the 2003 codex allowed me to take autocannons on my walkers).

In addition, note that an astropath in your CHQ is a force multiplier for your outflanking units.

Good luck!

IG, "We are many They are few."

It's a neat list but it's well over 2000 points, closer to 2300.

@ Tallarn: Thanks for the help. I'll work on a formal list more today and see what all I can squeeze in. Would you consider the Astropath a must when using Al'Raheem? Would you also consider a Master of Fleet or Master of Ordnance useful in this list?

@ Masterslowpoke: I haven't really pointed out a list yet. Just trying to generate workable ideas and then see what I can squeeze into 2K and where I can make cuts.

Panzerleader, first of all you can only have 2 SWSs per platoon, so even if you reorganised you couldn't have 5 in that list.

I think an army with so many HWSs and SWS would have too few men for the points, and would be very vulnerable to high strength firepower. I would never take more than 2 HWS/SWS per 4 infantry squads. You need the infantry to provide numbers, screen your heavy weapons, engage fast enemy assault units, etc. I think PCSs can fulfill the role of a SWS very effectively. How about the following platoon:

PCS: 3 flamers (or meltas), vox 50
4 x Inf. Squad: PG/AC (one vox) 305
HWS: autocannons 75

So you have one dedicated firepower squad (I think lascannons are far too expensive to put in such a vulnerable squad), and a big blob with a unit ready to counterattack once the enemy reaches your lines. You could easily add one more HWS, or a SWS with meltaguns or flamers and one demo charge (2-3 demo charges seems very expensive, and once the unit has shot its bolt it becomes useless). But I think if you spend too many points on lascannon HWSs and similar, you end up without very many men on the board.

I do think that artillery would be a cool and effective way to support an infantry gunline though - IG infantry lack a good way to kill heavy troops/vehicles at long range, artillery fills the gap nicely.

PanzerLeader, I hit the boards looking for this very conversation, and have a similar army which is currently expanding in the direction you are taking yours, so I hope you don't mind a lengthy post. I think your army will be as effective as it gonna look, which will be awesome. Be aware that HWS cannot take voxes, and the only Vets that can outflank are Gunnery Sgt. Harker's.

I'll post my current army in the army lists sections. It's about 1700 pts and not ideal, as some units are a little bloated so that i can play at that point level. Not enough boots to cover my 5x HWS, like I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly says. (I've got 19 heavy weapons in one platoon, plus 5 vehicles of various capability. The smaller the battles, the better I do, 3-0 in battles under 1k). But when the company reaches full strength, it will resemble yours. I think at 2000 pts this kind of army starts to get pretty mean, as you can really take advantage of the platoon's strengths. I'm aiming to fill out two platoons, plus an 'elite' platoon, and any more vehicles i can get my hands on, which will be few, since I am cheap. I'll post the army I'm working towards as well (not today though), with full vehicle support (which isn't likely to happen, and would probably bring me over 2500 and into Apocalypse anyways).

The basis of my strategy is to fill out the troops slots on the force chart with an assault platoon and a fire-support platoon, each with maxed out IS, HWS and SWS, and possibly a reserve platoon; these are supported by an 'elite' platoon of veterans and stormtroopers. Vehicles provide pieplates, shooting and mobility and if ever maxed out, serious transport capacity and Apocalyptic Firepower (3 heavy slots equals 9 pieplates now, but $ ... infantry reinforcements first).

The main difference with yours is that the role of light infantry is given to the elite platoon, and careful attention will be payed to deciding between outflanking, deepstriking, and infiltrating. I toyed with the idea of Al'Rahem for his flanking abilities, but the elite squads get the job done as well. 3x STS, two with 2x MG that will usually go Airborne Assault but sometimes Recon or Infiltrate, depending on mission/map. The last STS has 2x PG, going Recon, and ideally mounted so that the multilaser and plasma punish the flanks of vehics as they come on. Harker leads one VS to give me 4 squads capable of outflanking. One VS takes Demolitions, 3x MG, LC and chimera. The other VS take chimeras or Bastonne (or both for one) for mobility, Grenadiers for protection, and AC, 3x PG for dakka. Plasma and Melta weapons are my most expensive, but most powerful, so I keep them with the guys who can shoot them better and get places faster, as well as survive the Gets Hot. I'm going to start whole other thread on Harker, because there is a multitude of uses for that man.

The Assault Platoon is like a giant speedbump. It's IS's are devoid of heavy weapons to maximize mobility. With all flamers as well as commissars and priests to beef the LD and provide a PF or two, they advance on objectives or tie up assault waves. They can can blob into one or two large squads depending on mission/opponent. PCS barebones or all flamers. Most of the SWS's will support the Assault Platoon.

The Fire Support Platoon will probably have all LC's in the IS's, as that is the best place for them. I, like Illumini, am underwhelmed by GL's but they aren't expensive in the game or real life and are versatile. They also don't melt your own men. Fire Support sits on close objectives or screens heavy weapons squads (since I will have 10 if I max out both platoons).

A third platoon would provide even more HWS and SWS, and so would better than a 4th VS imo, leaving the Elite Platoon with 6 squads.

The CCS is very important to hold this army together, and should be placed with the most important HWS of the battle so the commander, standard and the lord commissar can keep them there and firing above average. I say fill it up, try to get to 12 models with bodyguards and advisors, as well as the Lord Commissar and priests - whatever you like, i'm even considering going over 12 models and just hiding behind the chimera till i lose some. I want my CCS to be able to take a pounding while it stands in the gunline, with medic, multiple wounds and refractor fields keeping it alive. If the enemy is shooting at it from the other side of the board it's not shooting at the things i will win with. If the enemy makes it across, it can counterattack.

All backed up by the best motor pool in 40K.

Your army could be so fluffy you could take it to bed. Put full sponsons/hull weapons on your tanks for that WWI look. I would consider RR for at least some fast attack, extremely fluffy and excellent if used properly. Clubs and trench knives, rifle grenades and gas masks are some other ideas. Mortars are WWI fluffy as well. I regularly field a battery and they aren't great against MEQ but sometimes pin an assault unit. They are obviously good against hordes. The more mortars, the better, cause they have to pin test every wound and they will fail some.

Remember the Canadian Corp! They were the Allied Stormtroopers of WWI!