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Heya all,

the children of the horned rat have been calling me for too long, and with the sweet new models, I have finally caved in! This is an expansion of the 1000pt army that i fielded in a tournament and did surprisingly well with.

GREY SEER.
Screaming Bell.
Skaven Brew
Staff of Sorcerey.

CHIEFTAN
BSB - Standard of the Horned Rat
Shield.

WARLOCK
lvl 2.
Warlock Augmented Weapon.

PLAGUE PRIEST
lvl 2.
Flail.

30 CLANRATS
shields. Full Cmd
25 CLANRATS
shields. spears. Full Cmd
25 SLAVES.
muisician. spears.
15 GIANT RATS
2 Packmasters.
19 STORMVERMIN
Full Cmd. shields.
Storm Banner
20 STORMVERMIN
Full Cmd. shields.

20 PLAGUE MONKS
Full Cmd.
20 PLAGUE MONKS
Full Cmd
8 PLAGUE CENSERS.

This comes out to roughly 2250pts...right now I am not quite convinced of 2 units of stormvermin and plague monks, despite their previous performance and am thinking of either some skyre weapons or an abomination....any thoughts?

first and formost you have to many full commands. you wont need all of them.

slaves wont need spears......
You have no dispell scrolls.......

and you might want a weapons team or 3.

For starters that is.

Just a few notes also, you are very valnerable to flyers and march blockers with this list.
I would think of taking a few swarms to help out the plague censors so that they get to where you want them to go and not get side tracked.

Hawkins wrote:slaves wont need spears......

Really? Care to expand on that. For 12 points, why would you not get spears for the unit?

at 52 points for 25 slaves with a musician, its a speed bump or flanking unit.
If its attacked it most likely wont get to use spears or hit with whats left with WS 2.
if it charges then spears are also useless on the charge round. its just points better put in other places.
slaves dont really last too long, and thats not a problem because of the points of the unit. Slaves are cheep and useful but only if they have the bare minimum.

Dont get me wrong, they are usefull as hell, ive killed a black coach with a block of 22 with musician when i hit it in the flank. but as a general rule less is better with slaves.

Slaves are meant to die. Spears just means the opponent gets extra VP when they do so. Generally, 21 slaves (the extra slave means it takes 5 kills and not 4 via magic/shooting for them to panic) with a musician (to rally if fleeing and win the random combat) was the best last edition. I'm really reconsidering the musician myself- often times I want them to lose combat and break, and if they do so, they're blowing up anyway and therefore not rallying.

My issue with your list is the lack of heavy hitters. The only things you have that are S5 or better are the PCB (first round), the PP (first round), and some spells, which are never super-reliable and you don't have an overwhelming magic phase for many people (10PD/6DD). The rest are all of 9 models, all frenzied. Give the chieftain a great weapon (2 slaves cost); as it's mundane, you have a choice in CC of HW/Shield or GW if you need it. Drop champions in most of your units; champions protect characters, but all your characters minus your Plague Priest can go to the back and still give leadership/BSB bonus anyway. With the points, pick up something with S5 or better to deal with tougher enemies.

the cheiftan is a BSB he cant have a great weapon. the banner already counts as a 2-handed weapon. Also i belive he cant have a sheild as a BSB as well.

And sorry, i dont have my Armybook right this momment, but i belive the lead from the back rule no longer exists. or does but has been modified so characters no longer gain the option of being in the last rank.

thanks for the replies! Lots to think about for me and the development of my horde!

Couple of thoughts, and examples of why I chose what i did.

Firstly, I can now see your points on the spears for the slaves. I put them on the slaves mainly with the idea that sure, they are going to die, but I may get one or two hits on em before I pop and maybe kill just a few more enemies. I can see where the points would be better spent elsewhere now.

The storm banner is in the army to put the kaibosh on all flyers trying to march block me...well, at least until they FAQ it.

In relation to the lack of weapon teams, so far I havent seen the use of them to any degree that will pay for their points. The plague mortar is cool, and potentially awesome, but there is A) no model for it, and B) i dont feel like making one. The ratling gun is ok, but I cant see it doing more than 3-4 hits in a turn and then maybe 2-3 wounds at most. The warpfire thrower is a great idea, potenially cool...but completely impractical.

In the tourney I played in, I went 5-0, and fought many different armies. I played woodelves, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, a Nurgle Daemon Army, and a Khorne/Nurgle Daemon Army. The only army that gave me pause was the Nurgle Daemon force, as it was very difficult to kill. The wood Elves were tough too, sicne it was hard to bring them to battle, but once I did, i smashed them. I had no ranged weapons at all, just infantry blocks, and the PCB. The static res, plus combining in flank charges, allowed me to crush anyone i fought. I used the slaves to bait them, forcing my opponent to charge or be charged, and when he destroys the slaves, he is now set up for counter charges from the clanrats and plaguemonks.

I had the opportunity to fight against an ancient Stegadon when I fought the lizzes, and I broke it in one round by hitting it with the rat swarms in the rear and clanrats to the front. I killed one skink, did no wounds to the big feller, and still broke it and ran it down thanks to static res. the only monsters that worry me are Greater Daemons such as a Bloodthirster, who can potentially kill enough to remove the +5 bonus, and dragons. To counter that, i am thinking Jezzails would be appropriate.

I can see what you are talking about with magic. Some dispel scrolls will make its way in!

Thanks for the help! Keep it coming!

the problem i see with this list is mutiple cav charges, skaven always have trouble againt them. rather than telling you to take this or that, im just going to tell you that patience wins out againt these type of units, and that you will need to learn, (if you havent yet) how to lead away chargers and how to sacrifice units fora greater gain. against frenzy is easy, against britonions its much harder as a standard army usually contains up to 8 units of cav. also looking at the list, are you not 1 pack master short? i though it was 1 packmaster for every 5 rats.
Lastly as you have guessed its static cmbat bonus that wins it for you, id look hard at the clanrats with spears as your not going to be on the defense with the unit all the time.

Ugh, please don't make comments about the rules if you don't have the rulebook! You can have BSBs with shields- that's a change through almost all of the 7th edition rulebooks. You can't have any magic weapons with a magic banner, but there is no restriction on mundane weapons.

As far as packmasters/giant rats, you can have NO MORE THAN 1 packmaster for every 5 rats; you can easily have less. The problem with less is the randomization might leave you without packmasters and therefore have giant rats running around without any control.

At 1000 points, most armies can't really field the big meanies that require high-strength hits to take out. If they do, they really hurt the number of units they have, which probably helped you get the multiple charges on the Steg. At 2250, however, you'll see more big meanies and more units on the table. Having a hammer or two more to take out those units, as well as the big blocks of stubborn/unbreakable that's out there, really helps.

I see.

After looking at the Skaven army list, can you recommend anything specific as a Hammer? The only one that leaps to mind is the Abomination, or perhaps a Plague Furnace?

Stormvermin seem pretty good for their points...a potential 3+ sv in combat if not using halberds (equip /w shields), throw in a cheiftan or something, and they could be a good anvil or hammer in either case.

In terms of weapon teams, which ones would you recommend?

Also, I was running swarms in my previous list, but gave them up as they were fairly squishy and I think slaves worked better...However, although it said swarm in their listing, does that mean they are skirmish or not? Does it have to say specifically skirmish for them?

Some comments on the original list

1) you NEED some scrolls. I cant stress this enough.

2) Plague monks aren't all that good. 2 units of 20 isnt really good. 1 is enough to fill the uses they have.

3) Spears arent necessary

4) storm vermin are overpriced and not worth it in my book. They are slightly tougher rats for twice the price. Unless you want one of those units pushing the bell then I would suggest dropping both and taking two more clanrat units and two more slave units

5) you really need more slave units, see #4

6) all units you are planning on running chars in need champs. Simple as that.

7) you need another heavy hitter or two. I would throw in another censur bearer unit or an HA. Both are very good.

8) I would bump the 15 giant rats to at least 20. Still cheep and it gets full ranks.

I appreciate the shear number of rats in this army, quite the horde. I do think a furnace would benefit you, as beyond what it does for the unit pushing it (i.e. make it awesome), you also have a decent plague contingent that can benefit from the stubborn. Other than that, maybe some kind of defense for the seer? To avoid embarrassing assassinations and such.

- Salvage

Maybe "hammer" is the wrong term- more "stuff that can kill tough/armored stuff." Basically, all of our specials (excluding Plague Monks) can take out knights/Chaos Warriors/Dwarfs with either strong attacks or poisoned balls (4+ wounds whenever you hit gets better the tougher the target). PCBs are nasty tough, but skirmishers+frenzy can put you at risk of being led around the table.

Its not a bad list - I think though basing a skaven's horde performance at 1000 points doesn't really compare as much when you move up to 2250. Basically adding 1250 points gives ALOT of other highly competitive armies the tools to field their really nasty stuff.

1. As far as a "hammer" unit, I would go with the abomination. Its plain nasty and unless running into a steam tank (I give it 50/50 on that one) or a flaming bloodthirster, there aren't many things that can hang with it.

2. Stormvermin - I guess thats a manner of preference. I think their overcosted for what you get and don't fit in that great with the horde army concept, but if they work great. I just can't see shelling out $50 a box for them.

3. Grey Seer on the bell - well he's a big target, but at least gets MR2 and a ward. Not sure which unit you were looking to push it with, but I wouldn't use the stormvermin (units are too small to take the doubles and triples wounds).

4. Other characters - definateley need some scrolls, banner is okay, warlock is waaaay too expensive for what he does (I'm favoring a regular guy with a brass orb -65 points and doesn't need to kill much to make it up), PCB on the Plague priest isn't bad. If that warlock gets into combat, he's pretty much toast anyways so I wouldn't make him that expensive. WIth so many plague priests, I would think about a furnace.

5. I agree on the slaves - save your 10 points and lose the spears. All about static combat res anyways - if they kill something great, but are pretty expendable.

6. If your looking for a general horde advance and getting into combat, I'd go with the warpflayer weapon team. Artillery dice of impact hits basically every round? Best armor save in your army? Fit perfectly accompanying some stormvermin or clanrats in.

7. Stormbanner is going to be errated to "one use only" (pretty much confirmed it was just a typo in English books", so I wouldn't bank on it protecting your army from shooting.

I see this army having problems with the more competitive armies at 2250 - demons, empire, VC, DE would give you a run for your money, especially ones that aren't going to break from combat.

Lots of great advice and food for thought.

here is a new list I am working up, taking into account some of the ideas here.

GREY SEER.
Screaming Bell.
Skaven Brew
Staff of Sorcerey.

CHIEFTAN
BSB - Standard of the Horned Rat
Shield.

WARLOCK
lvl 1. Dispel Scroll

PLAGUE PRIEST
lvl 1.
Plague Furnace.
Dispel Scroll

30 CLANRATS
shields. Muisician/Standard
25 CLANRATS
shields. Muisician/Standard
25 CLANRATS
shields. Muisician/Standard
20 SLAVES.
20 SLAVES.
20 GIANT RATS
3 Packmasters.
19 STORMVERMIN
Full Cmd. shields.
Storm Banner

20 PLAGUE MONKS
Full Cmd.
8 PLAGUE CENSERS.
6 JEZZAILS

Better, although running both the Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace in the same list - thats about 16 percent of your total points in those two models. I would choose one and run with it. Personal preference is the Furnace, as it isn't random like the bell.

Jezzails aren't bad (I'm assuming you want something that can snipe the big nasties that could cause your army problems), although they took a hit with the lack of skirmishing.

Personally would drop the Screaming bell and the Jezzails and add an abomination.

SweatyDemon: sorry, was thinking of the last army book for weapons options, tell the truth i didnt look and just assumed it hadnt changed.

No worries. It's been a trend in recent books to allow BSBs to have mundane equipment; if Skaven didn't get it, and could no longer hang around the back, they would be too easy to assassinate (at least our "fighty" heroes are more-or-less super-cheap).

If you can find the points, think about maybe the Warlock Engineer with a Brass Orb. You can keep him dirt cheap (65 with the Orb bare bones) and he has the potential to insta kill a steam tank and VERY good odds of killing almost anything in a Lizardmen army, dwarves, pop a popemobile, orcs, etc. etc. Template only needs to touch a part of the model for the initiative test and byebye - no saves.

through my experiance a warlock engineer with brass globe fails 'o so miserably and on that you haft to be close to trough the orb

Definitely say take the abomination. I've seen it run the last few weeks and it is truly nasty. Does have the possibility of hurting your guys, like most of the skaven stuff, but the benefits are truly deadly.