Defense attorney: Bradley Manning a whistleblower

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**djones520**

And his words were pure lies, as has been demonstrated throughout this thread.

Keep your fingers plugged in your ears though. Facing reality can be hard at times, you don't want to stress yourself.

**CptJake**

BrassScorpion wrote:
Fortunately, Bradley Manning was allowed to speak.

Read the full transcript of Bradley Manning's statement today. In his remarks, he quotes late historian Howard Zinn: "There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people."

Bradley Manning: 'Sometimes You Have to Pay a Heavy Price to Live in a Free Society'

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/8/21/bradley_manning_sometimes_you_have_to_pay_a_heavy_price_to_live_in_a_free_society

The following is a transcript of the statement made by Pfc. Bradley Manning as read by David Coombs at a press conference on Wednesday after Manning was sentenced to 35 years in prison.

The decisions that I made in 2010 were made out of a concern for my country and the world that we live in. Since the tragic events of 9/11, our country has been at war. We’ve been at war with an enemy that chooses not to meet us on any traditional battlefield, and due to this fact we’ve had to alter our methods of combating the risks posed to us and our way of life.

I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing. It was at this time I realized in our efforts to meet this risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity. We consciously elected to devalue human life both in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we engaged those that we perceived were the enemy, we sometimes killed innocent civilians. Whenever we killed innocent civilians, instead of accepting responsibility for our conduct, we elected to hide behind the veil of national security and classified information in order to avoid any public accountability.

In our zeal to kill the enemy, we internally debated the definition of torture. We held individuals at Guantanamo for years without due process. We inexplicably turned a blind eye to torture and executions by the Iraqi government. And we stomached countless other acts in the name of our war on terror.

Patriotism is often the cry extolled when morally questionable acts are advocated by those in power. When these cries of patriotism drown our any logically based intentions [unclear], it is usually an American soldier that is ordered to carry out some ill-conceived mission.

Our nation has had similar dark moments for the virtues of democracy—the Trail of Tears, the Dred Scott decision, McCarthyism, the Japanese-American internment camps—to name a few. I am confident that many of our actions since 9/11 will one day be viewed in a similar light.

As the late Howard Zinn once said, "There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people."

I understand that my actions violated the law, and I regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the United States. It was never my intention to hurt anyone. I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others.

If you deny my request for a pardon, I will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society. I will gladly pay that price if it means we could have country that is truly conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all women and men are created equal.

Funny. Manning didn't write that, his lawyer did. And it is full of the same BS you've been pasting into this topic all afternoon.

**Monster Rain**

AlexHolker wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
What makes me really laugh is the same bunch who treat Democracy Now! as gospel will cry the blues about Fox's conservative bias.

There's a rather substantial difference there: when we accuse Fox of calling a discredited Republican a Democrat, or photoshopping a Democrat's picture to make them look misshapen, we can point to contradictory evidence that proves Fox's deception. You, on the other hand, are just bleating about "bias" without the slightest bit of evidence to back it up. If you dispute that the harshest sentence given to the rapists and torturers at Abu Ghraib was ten years where Manning got thirty-five, prove it, or shut up.

Allow me to translate:

"The pundits and news sources I happen to agree with are more truthful than those with whom I do not agree."

I totally get it.

As for the Abu Ghraib thing, I consider it irrelevant to the subject at hand.

**BrassScorpion**

The real war criminals go free and with pensions paid for by taxpayers. Disgusting.

**Alfndrate**

BrassScorpion wrote:
The real war criminals go free and with pensions paid for by taxpayers. Disgusting.

Image Snipped

This is bordering on spam dude...

**LordofHats**

Alfndrate wrote:
BrassScorpion wrote:
The real war criminals go free and with pensions paid for by taxpayers. Disgusting.

Image Snipped

This is bordering on spam dude...

No. You can't stand on spam. For that you need:

**AlexHolker**

Alfndrate wrote:
Using terms like "war criminals" when describing the actions of Bush, Abu Ghraib, etc... and how those people didn't get nearly as long as a sentence (or none in Bush's case) as a man that "leaked government secrets" and linking to news articles that are all extremely liberal in their view is letting your bias show, which is why I asked for conservative news sources with the liberal new sources he was posting.

Do you dispute that torturing prisoners is a war crime? If not, then quit the mealy-mouthed bs about "bias".

**whembly**

AlexHolker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Using terms like "war criminals" when describing the actions of Bush, Abu Ghraib, etc... and how those people didn't get nearly as long as a sentence (or none in Bush's case) as a man that "leaked government secrets" and linking to news articles that are all extremely liberal in their view is letting your bias show, which is why I asked for conservative news sources with the liberal new sources he was posting.

Do you dispute that torturing prisoners is a war crime? If not, then quit the mealy-mouthed bs about "bias".

Erm... Bush and Cheney tortured the prisoners?

I did want Rumsfield to be fired/resigned over this.

**djones520**

AlexHolker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Using terms like "war criminals" when describing the actions of Bush, Abu Ghraib, etc... and how those people didn't get nearly as long as a sentence (or none in Bush's case) as a man that "leaked government secrets" and linking to news articles that are all extremely liberal in their view is letting your bias show, which is why I asked for conservative news sources with the liberal new sources he was posting.

Do you dispute that torturing prisoners is a war crime? If not, then quit the mealy-mouthed bs about "bias".

I dispute that water boarding is torture.

**Seaward**

AlexHolker wrote:
Do you dispute that torturing prisoners is a war crime? If not, then quit the mealy-mouthed bs about "bias".

Prisoners of war, sure.

Enemy combatants? Good luck making that case, aside from needing to hurdle the whole definition of torture issue.

**Ouze**

djones520 wrote:
I dispute that water boarding is torture.

Well, I dispute that Bieber is a musician, but unfortunately for both of us neither is really in the arena of opinion? Waterboarding sure was torture back when we hung Japanese troops for doing it to Americans, and when we court martialed our own troops for doing it to Filipinos.

**whembly**

Ouze wrote:
djones520 wrote:
I dispute that water boarding is torture.

Well, I dispute that Bieber is a musician, but unfortunately for both of us neither is really in the arena of opinion? Waterboarding sure was torture back when we hung Japanese troops for doing it to Americans, and when we court martialed our own troops for doing it to Filipinos.

Why we're talking about this again?

Anyways, Manning broke the law. If he wanted to be a whistleblower, there were legal avenue he could've chosen.

Justice has been rendered.

**djones520**

Ouze wrote:
djones520 wrote:
I dispute that water boarding is torture.

Well, I dispute that Bieber is a musician, but unfortunately for both of us neither is really in the arena of opinion? Waterboarding sure was torture back when we hung Japanese troops for doing it to Americans, and when we court martialed our own troops for doing it to Filipinos.

Water Cure (what the Japanese did) and Water Boarding are two completely different things. Water Cure IS torture, in that it does cause physical harm, and often times leads to death. Water Boarding is not, and does not. I know this has been covered a ton of times on here, I don't know why this tired tripe keeps getting dragged out.

**Jihadin**

So....are we Bush bashing or debating water boarding is torture? Mind you it was an unpleasant 15-20 min ordeal but I knew it was ending due to the time line. The lack of sleep through out was a real pain in the arse though.

**djones520**

Jihadin wrote:
So....are we Bush bashing or debating water boarding is torture? Mind you it was an unpleasant 15-20 min ordeal but I knew it was ending due to the time line. The lack of sleep through out was a real pain in the arse though.

I know we put our own guys through it, and possibly worse in SERE training. I wish I could attend at some point in my career, just so I could see where my breaking point is.

**Ouze**

djones520 wrote:
Water Cure (what the Japanese did) and Water Boarding are two completely different things. Water Cure IS torture, in that it does cause physical harm, and often times leads to death. Water Boarding is not, and does not. I know this has been covered a ton of times on here, I don't know why this tired tripe keeps getting dragged out.

Because you are disconnected from reality.

I'm not going to offtrack this further, feel free to start a new thread if you wish to make these outlandish claims anyone with google and 30 seconds can debunk

**Monster Rain**

Yeah, something we do to our own troops as training is a tough sell as "torture".

I can't believe people are dragging this up as a defense for Manning for whatever goofy reason, though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Water Cure (what the Japanese did) and Water Boarding are two completely different things. Water Cure IS torture, in that it does cause physical harm, and often times leads to death. Water Boarding is not, and does not. I know this has been covered a ton of times on here, I don't know why this tired tripe keeps getting dragged out.

Because you are disconnected from reality.

I'm not going to offtrack this further, feel free to start a new thread if you wish to make these outlandish claims anyone with google and 30 seconds can debunk

I love it.

While you're on google, use 15 of that 30 seconds to learn the difference between water boarding and the water cure.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Also, I absolutely LOVE that Brass' "sources" decry the "American Justice System" when in fact, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "American Justice System" and everything to do with the "Uniform Code of Military Justice"

The keyword in there, MILITARY. I mean, holy flying monkey poo, this dirtbag was not a civilian!!!! Civilian laws and ideals are meaningless in this case. While certainly there are injustices within the UCMJ, we are still, overall held to a little higher standard than the average person. What he did was completely and totally inexcusable, and I think that the punishment is OK.

**Jihadin**

I though do want to clarify. Water Boarding is a "Total Mind Rollercoaster Ride" that's help along with gasping for breaths. Physical torture though is a different ball game. Both though will employ "Lack of Sleep". One though is faster then the other. Physical Torture aspect is quicker but anyone will say anything to stop the physical pain. Mental torture comes down to mental endurance and will power vs pain threshold and will power.

SERE school does not test how much you can endure. Its hardening you not to become belligerent during "torture". The more belligerent you are the more of a "Horror Show" you going to go through. I'm going to loosely say this in this term. "You control how bad its going to be". Which is offset by how badly the other party wants to hurt you in general being an American with the possibility you might have some intell they want.

edit
UCMJ sentencing on par with other sentencing. Two prior cases both received 30+ years. Unlike civilian side of the house where individuals get life in prison. Manning eligible for parole at 40.

**Mannahnin**

Water Boarding is torture, of course, as most military interrogators will tell you. That we employ it in training, which an attendee can opt out of if he wants, doesn't change that.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/waterboarding-is-torture-period-links-updated-9

Malcolm Nance wrote:In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

**d-usa**

d-usa wrote:
He'll get 35 years.

Well, look at me

**Monster Rain**

Mannahnin wrote:
Water Boarding is torture, of course, as most military interrogators will tell you. That we employ it in training, which an attendee can opt out of if he wants, doesn't change that.

Yeah, but "torture" is a bit of a spectrum, don't you think?

Playing loud music is considered torture by some if the Gitmo controversy is any indication, which is a far cry from some of the more barbaric practices that involve cutting and burning and crushing bones and whatnot. The real impasse on this topic is whether or not one feels that the ends justify the means if something like waterboarding can be used to prevent more serious harm to other people. I think it's a much less a black and white issue than people are comfortable admitting.

**Alfndrate**

AlexHolker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
Using terms like "war criminals" when describing the actions of Bush, Abu Ghraib, etc... and how those people didn't get nearly as long as a sentence (or none in Bush's case) as a man that "leaked government secrets" and linking to news articles that are all extremely liberal in their view is letting your bias show, which is why I asked for conservative news sources with the liberal new sources he was posting.

Do you dispute that torturing prisoners is a war crime? If not, then quit the mealy-mouthed bs about "bias".

Define Prisoners of War vs. Enemy Combatants.

I believe that the people that are shooting at US soldiers over in Iraq, Afganistan, etc... don't qualify as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, but history was never my strong suit.

**whembly**

Mannahnin wrote:
Water Boarding is torture, of course, as most military interrogators will tell you. That we employ it in training, which an attendee can opt out of if he wants, doesn't change that.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/waterboarding-is-torture-period-links-updated-9

Malcolm Nance wrote:In fact, waterboarding is just the type of torture then Lt. Commander John McCain had to endure at the hands of the North Vietnamese. As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception. I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques used by the US army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What was not mentioned in most articles was that SERE was designed to show how an evil totalitarian, enemy would use torture at the slightest whim. If this is the case, then waterboarding is unquestionably being used as torture technique.

Well... the only thing I'd add is that do we consider all forms of torture totally inappropriate?

I mean, I can't watch Peirs Morgan as I want to pull my eyeballs out everytime... isn't that torture?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
d-usa wrote:
He'll get 35 years.

Well, look at me

Quick... what are the powerball numbers?

**Seaward**

Mannahnin wrote:
Water Boarding is torture, of course, as most military interrogators will tell you. That we employ it in training, which an attendee can opt out of if he wants, doesn't change that.

You can opt out of waterboarding? Wish I'd known that.

Can you opt out of getting socked around by that tiny chick, too?

**AlexHolker**

Monster Rain wrote:
Yeah, but "torture" is a bit of a spectrum, don't you think?

Playing loud music is considered torture by some if the Gitmo controversy is any indication, which is a far cry from some of the more barbaric practices that involve cutting and burning and crushing bones and whatnot.

Sleep deprivation causes madness followed by death. Waterboarding is nothing less than controlled drowning. Like electrocution, they are merely more easily hidden forms of torture.

The real impasse on this topic is whether or not one feels that the ends justify the means if something like waterboarding can be used to prevent more serious harm to other people. I think it's a much less a black and white issue than people are comfortable admitting.

No, it is not. That is why it's so obscene to see people like yourself defending it. Torture isn't just evil, it is also useless. It is incapable of obtaining accurate intelligence - the CIA's idiotic reliance on torture as a source of intelligence is one of the reasons it took so long to find Bin Laden. The only thing torture is good for is to inspire fear and hatred: in other words, to commit acts of terrorism.

Alfndrate wrote:
Define Prisoners of War vs. Enemy Combatants.

I believe that the people that are shooting at US soldiers over in Iraq, Afganistan, etc... don't qualify as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, but history was never my strong suit.

Legally speaking, there is no such thing as an "unlawful combatant". You are either a prisoner of war, and receive the protection of the Geneva Conventions, or you are a civilian, and receive the protection of the Geneva Conventions. There is no third option. It is a lie invented by the Bush administration to pretend they were not committing war crimes by violating the protections required by the Geneva Conventions.

**Monster Rain**

Alex, you're adorable.

Show me where I defended torture. If you would calm down for five seconds you'd see that I was talking about the debate itself, and not offering my own opinion on the subject. I'm not going to attempt to engage in an actual conversation with you, since you are clearly only interested in frothing all over your screen, but your opinions may not be objectively correct.

Take a breath.

**d-usa**

Sometimes, these threads are torture...

**Monster Rain**

Yet here we are.

Like moths to a flame.

**Alfndrate**

d-usa wrote:
Sometimes, these threads are torture...

Only when we start offing ourselves...