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Yeah.

I only just now realized that you can't take just generic Ynnari commanders. EACH detachment is required to take one of the Triumvirate to be Ynnari.

 Argive wrote:
I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now

That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).

harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.

 Argive wrote:
Removed - BrookM


So now that ynari is gimmic, The question is, do they drop points back for CWE units in the upcoming FAQ??? Yeah Im no good at jokes..

Its melee focus now, not gimmick.

And why would they? a few things got cheaper, the only things that went up NEEDED to go up regardless if its Ynnari or Not, Dark Reapers and Shining Spears for sure were under costed/


Ynnari now will be more focus on playing more units, easier to understand and play, but will help different units, units that needs help (Many Wych Units, Many CWE melee units, Harlequins) i would rather those units get a better update, but they will now be viable more so.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now

That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).

harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.

I think they loose too much going Ynnari. I play with and against Wraithguard/blades quite a lot and to get them to do work relies a lot on the Vigilas re-roll charges warlord trait, 4++ strat, Protect, Quicken, Fortune, Matchless Agility, the Psytronome and the Iyanden strat, as well as the obvious Doom and Jinx. There's definitely a few things that help but the strength and depth of them just doesnt match.

 Imateria wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now

That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).

harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.

I think they loose too much going Ynnari. I play with and against Wraithguard/blades quite a lot and to get them to do work relies a lot on the Vigilas re-roll charges warlord trait, 4++ strat, Protect, Quicken, Fortune, Matchless Agility, the Psytronome and the Iyanden strat, as well as the obvious Doom and Jinx. There's definitely a few things that help but the strength and depth of them just doesnt match.

I think that really sums up how this Index feels. Some units benefit from going Ynnari, sure. But not as much as if they just stayed in their native faction.

Dunno man. With a double d3 heal (wop & a bonesinger) 5++ bubble wraithlords spearhead is starting to look interesting.

 Argive wrote:
Dunno man. With a double d3 heal (wop & a bonesinger) 5++ bubble wraithlords spearhead is starting to look interesting.

That gets +1 to hit, re-roll 1's to hit, re-roll wounds, and you can bring back a dead one as well and finally a 6+++ if you take that and are near them.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Burnage wrote:


I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.

Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.

At least a Craftworlder gets you Doom.

I mean, she does double-smite, she's not totally useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest problem I think structurally is having to take 1 ynnari hero per detachment, because ideally you'd have 3 detachments, and the yncarne is just...yikes. Something that's less useful than a basic CSM winged daemon prince for about double the point cost... Visarch and Yvraine both seem serviceable.

So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.

Yeah, Ynnari still has their Doom, you wont lose Doom esk in Soups even if the real Doom is nerf.

Yvarine in DE isnt bad just to have, especially if you want double battalion with Kabal now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, Ynnari still has their Doom, you wont lose Doom esk in Soups even if the real Doom is nerf.

Yvarine in DE isnt bad just to have, especially if you want double battalion with Kabal now.

Or Visarch, either. He's basically a better beatstick archon in and of himself. TBH secondary archons are usually such deadweight for me I'd probably bring both visarch and yvraine in a double kabal battalion list.

Yvraine takes Gaze of Ynnead and Unbind Souls just in case she and Visarch get into combat with something they'd like to reroll wounds against, Visarch just chills near her and gives her rerolls of 1 to hit.

I can't think of any two non-warlord non-relic holding DE hq's they're not better than, with Yvraine as the first priority (two psychic denies with +1 and a nice reliable source of 4 MW's per turn, sounds great) and Visarch as the second

The Huskblade Ynnari Relic is actually very good (+3str, -3ap, 2D, MW's on 6's), but you lose Living muse if you go Ynnari.

I am for sure taking 1 of them character in DE now, i dont like taking 2 Archons as well.

the_scotsman wrote:


So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.

That will suffer the same issue as Harlequin troupes and other melee MSU stuff out there: The combat-interrupt stratagem. In a world where 30-strong Bloodletter units are considered glass-cannons, trying to bring down stuff in cc with a bunch of 5-10 man units and support characters, T3 for the most part, when any Knight Gallant or Genestealer blob or even medicore stuff like large Death Company units can go 2nd for 2 CP, just isn't viable. Not to mention no bonus to charge from deep strike. No Hive Commander or DMC to get stuff across the board. And a meta where people must be able to fight against things like GSC or Da Jumping Ork mobs or even "fun, fluffy" armies like triple Gallants or Lord Discordant/Maulerfiend rush.

Not seeing it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.

That will suffer the same issue as Harlequin troupes and other melee MSU stuff out there: The combat-interrupt stratagem. In a world where 30-strong Bloodletter units are considered glass-cannons, trying to bring down stuff in cc with a bunch of 5-10 man units and support characters, T3 for the most part, when any Knight Gallant or Genestealer blob or even medicore stuff like large Death Company units can go 2nd for 2 CP, just isn't viable. Not to mention no bonus to charge from deep strike. No Hive Commander or DMC to get stuff across the board. And a meta where people must be able to fight against things like GSC or Da Jumping Ork mobs or even "fun, fluffy" armies like triple Gallants or Lord Discordant/Maulerfiend rush.

Not seeing it.

You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.

You have Storm Guardians as Troops, having 30 of these guys wont kill off that many Orks, but 3 units fighting first, now you are able to kill some before you die, with a 5++/6+++ you never know, you might keep a couple alive.

Troupes would more or less be getting 5 attacks with all re-rolls hitting on 2+ wounding on 3+ vs T3/T4 you wouldnt take a small unit, you would take a 12 man and high them, with -1 to wound, a 4++/6+++ and can bring back a model, then with -1 to hit if Tau wants to shoot them, its not really a worth wild target for the 30 S5 (wounding on 4) hits with no bonus from markerlights, now you'll run and charge, with an Autarch and Banshees taking the Overwatch (even a 5man unit of banshees for OW stopping), you'll have 60 atacks hitting on 2+, re-roll , wound on 3+/4+ (if T4 or T5) with re-rolls -2ap on average thats 44 wounds after saves vs Orks, Tau, IG.

I think you can make it work well, its going to be harder for sure.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

fresus wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get

Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.

Same here. Will add some variety to my Quins.

Ah, two non competitives? Then yes have fun! I guess I should of specified. SERIOUS PLAYERS! The shelf or trash they go. Now we can laugh when we see these models on the table.

I'm not sure how WH40k can ever be serious business other than to those that make a living selling or producing it?

If you bought them based on power level, then you should know that things will change. GW is actively attempting to balance the game, and with that, sometimes things go well, and sometimes they don't. They may have gone too far here, but if you are upset because soulburst no longer lets you get 20-30cp for free per game in extra activations and its brought in line to not provide such a negative game experience, then I'm sorry. I honestly don't know what to say other than I wouldn't buy broken stuff because its broken and expect it never to change. If that was your expectation, your expectation was wrong.

I think GW has kind of shown that they aren't afraid to really shake things up with their CA and FAQ releases. I think GW has also shown that they will risk making a lot of people upset for the attempt to better balance the game, referencing the fallout over the rule of 3 when it was introduced.

All of this is not to say that all of their balancing decisiosn have been spot on or perfect, far from it, but they have shown that when things are too good, they will try to make it better.


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 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Dunno man. With a double d3 heal (wop & a bonesinger) 5++ bubble wraithlords spearhead is starting to look interesting.

That gets +1 to hit, re-roll 1's to hit, re-roll wounds, and you can bring back a dead one as well and finally a 6+++ if you take that and are near them.

I was thinking about this all day long on my way back from a convention and ITC tournament today while we were going through it (long drive)
Bringing back wraithguard or wraithblades, (especially when wraithblades are getting the +1 to hit) with double heal, man, that feels like it might be really strong. When things settle and I can get my hands on the WD, ill start testing it. I also, (even though you can't give him the discipline) think a wraithseer with the half-damage and 5+++ would be really interesting too...

Ok, not got the codices with me, due to being at work right now, but a question for someone that has them to hand.

IIRC Power from Pain, Rising Cresendo, Battle Focus etc are all listed as Army Abilities on the pages before the unit datasheets. Are these listed as Drukahri/Harlequin/Craftworlds abilities or Asuraryni etc abilities? Because if they are just Craftworld etc abilities then Ynnari won’t be able to use them without an FAQ to determine where or not they are a “detachment ability” or not.

All in all though, I can see Ynnari detachments and characters dropping off massively now in favour of just regular Craftworlds/Drukahri detachments. Eldar are a shooty army, rather than a combat army. It doesn’t matter really if you’re hitting on 2’s (after shooting a unit to death first) if you’re always wounding on 5+’s due to being str 3. It works for Shining Spears and Wraithblades but beyond that the uses are limited.

I’ve been informed that the FAQ is dropping sometime today (Monday). So, beyond the Castellan nerf it’ll be interesting to see what else changes as some Eldar changes could affect the new Ynnari even more.

You get PFP, RC, BF, Drugs, this has already been discussed.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.

You can pull off a charge with Banshees even on turn 1. But not with Ynnari, because you do not have Matchless Agility to reliably get 6 on advance.
To get +1 to attacks you need 3 units of every faction in the list.
I don't know where you get re-rolls.
Banshees are 2 attacks by default.

You can do almost as good if not better with pure Craftworlds by being Biel-Tan and casting Doom on enemy, without wasting loads of CP.

The truth is, if you want to play some melee units from Craftworlds, even the most average options from Craftworlds would do it better than Ynnari, and you would keep all the best Craftworld stuff.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.

You can pull off a charge with Banshees even on turn 1. But not with Ynnari, because you do not have Matchless Agility to reliably get 6 on advance.
To get +1 to attacks you need 3 units of every faction in the list.
I don't know where you get re-rolls.
Banshees are 2 attacks by default.

Re-rolls hits is a power re-roll wounds is a stratagem. You can also just take a Visarch as he has a re-roll hits of 1 Aura now.

Oh right, Ancestor's Grace.

Visarch is a bit too slow to follow Banshees, he can't charge after Advancing.

Wraith units can be made useful with ynnari.
The biggest winner is probably the Wraithseer. Even if he can't get the revenant psychic powers. The lost shroud relic (half damage and 5+++) and one of the warlord traits (probably 6" consolidate/heroic intervene) with the possibility to heal back up could make him quite good.

Also Wraithguards and Wraithscythes. But why? They are the shooty ones... Yes, but they are ok at melee too. Now with the Ynnari buff they are good at shooting, above average at melee and tough. Making them a really good all-round unit. Especially the Wraithscythes, since they can always fallback and shoot. Basicly, flame a good flame target and then charge a good multiwound target (fists are d3 damage). You can do this already, but hitting on 2+ and always fight first might be pretty big for them.

Also, you could do an all out psychic-pewpew force. With access to so many mortal wound psychic spells, you could do a MW-special force group. It's not game breaking or anything, but if you like psychers, you have even more to play with now. Executioner (CW), Mind War (CW), Mirror of Minds (Harl), Shards of Light (Harl), Gaze of Ynnead (Ynnari), Storms of whisper (Ynnari). 4 casters casting something + smite and then Warlocks with the Ynnari powers because they only have a minismite anyways.

Nothing really gamebreaking, but there are some possibilities.

Weidekuh wrote:
Wraith units can be made useful with ynnari.
The biggest winner is probably the Wraithseer. Even if he can't get the revenant psychic powers. The lost shroud relic (half damage and 5+++) and one of the warlord traits (probably 6" consolidate/heroic intervene) with the possibility to heal back up could make him quite good.

Also Wraithguards and Wraithscythes. But why? They are the shooty ones... Yes, but they are ok at melee too. Now with the Ynnari buff they are good at shooting, above average at melee and tough. Making them a really good all-round unit. Especially the Wraithscythes, since they can always fallback and shoot. Basicly, flame a good flame target and then charge a good multiwound target (fists are d3 damage). You can do this already, but hitting on 2+ and always fight first might be pretty big for them.

Also, you could do an all out psychic-pewpew force. With access to so many mortal wound psychic spells, you could do a MW-special force group. It's not game breaking or anything, but if you like psychers, you have even more to play with now. Executioner (CW), Mind War (CW), Mirror of Minds (Harl), Shards of Light (Harl), Gaze of Ynnead (Ynnari), Storms of whisper (Ynnari). 4 casters casting something + smite and then Warlocks with the Ynnari powers because they only have a minismite anyways.

Nothing really gamebreaking, but there are some possibilities.

The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.

With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Oh right, Ancestor's Grace.

Visarch is a bit too slow to follow Banshees, he can't charge after Advancing.

Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings is 85pts, faster and gives the re-roll 1's. With the Hungering Blade and Warden of Souls warlord trait he'll be better in combat than the Visarch as well (ironic that Autarchs now finally have a good weapon available to them but it comes at the price of an aweful army) for nearly 40pts less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, Ynnari still has their Doom, you wont lose Doom esk in Soups even if the real Doom is nerf.

Yvarine in DE isnt bad just to have, especially if you want double battalion with Kabal now.

Or Visarch, either. He's basically a better beatstick archon in and of himself. TBH secondary archons are usually such deadweight for me I'd probably bring both visarch and yvraine in a double kabal battalion list.

Yvraine takes Gaze of Ynnead and Unbind Souls just in case she and Visarch get into combat with something they'd like to reroll wounds against, Visarch just chills near her and gives her rerolls of 1 to hit.

I can't think of any two non-warlord non-relic holding DE hq's they're not better than, with Yvraine as the first priority (two psychic denies with +1 and a nice reliable source of 4 MW's per turn, sounds great) and Visarch as the second

I agree that the Visarch is better in combat than an Archon, I just don't think he's 45pts better.

 Imateria wrote:
The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.

With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.

I am having a little trouble following you here.

If you want to deliver them, wouldn't you just stick them in a Wave Serpent? From what I understand, the wave serpent is still a valid unit selection in Y'nnari. I also don't think the damage profile is a problem if you feel that you need the armor penetration, wouldn't you just take wraith cannons? Otherwise 5 or 6 D3, even at 1 damage a piece is still pretty destructive at getting rid of dudes, especially when you can follow it up with a bunch of S5 AP-1 D3 damage fists (well, 5 or 6 of them).

I mean, in the scenario you outlined, its a 430 point unit, backed up by a Spiritseer, 2 command points, a warlock at a minimum, a Farseer, then another command point for matchless agility, then potentially doom (which I am going to assume would be done by the same farseer) and jinx, done by something else? so, 3CP, 220 points of support spread across 2 stratagems, a specialist detachment, and a minimum of 3 psychic powers (and if you go the full monty of Doom and Jinx, 5 psychic powers and another warlock, making your support for them quite expensive at approximately 275 points and 3 models). I understand that you are outlining why playing them in Craftworld Aeldari would be better, but if you are taking Y'nnari anyway because that is what the list synergizes well with and you want some additional fire support, it seems like they would be fine for 215 points for 5 dudes that can jump in a wave serpent for another 147 points and have some mortal wound output, the ability to eat elite infantry or to take a relatively decent chunk out of armored troops, and not be a pushover in melee.

so, I'm not sure that just being Ynnari is supposed to give you that level of advantage, in fact, i would argue that the level of advantage conferred by Ynnari before the change over is kind of exactly why it's being changed.

 Imateria wrote:

Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings is 85pts, faster and gives the re-roll 1's. With the Hungering Blade and Warden of Souls warlord trait he'll be better in combat than the Visarch as well (ironic that Autarchs now finally have a good weapon available to them but it comes at the price of an aweful army) for nearly 40pts less.

How is an Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings 85 points?

You forgot to pay for:

+fusion pistol
+forceshield
+power sword

Or am I missing something?

Aside from foot one both Autarches are more than 100 points, yes.

Total brain fart on my part, he's 102. Thats still 19pts cheaper though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.

With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.

I am having a little trouble following you here.

If you want to deliver them, wouldn't you just stick them in a Wave Serpent? From what I understand, the wave serpent is still a valid unit selection in Y'nnari. I also don't think the damage profile is a problem if you feel that you need the armor penetration, wouldn't you just take wraith cannons? Otherwise 5 or 6 D3, even at 1 damage a piece is still pretty destructive at getting rid of dudes, especially when you can follow it up with a bunch of S5 AP-1 D3 damage fists (well, 5 or 6 of them).

I mean, in the scenario you outlined, its a 430 point unit, backed up by a Spiritseer, 2 command points, a warlock at a minimum, a Farseer, then another command point for matchless agility, then potentially doom (which I am going to assume would be done by the same farseer) and jinx, done by something else? so, 3CP, 220 points of support spread across 2 stratagems, a specialist detachment, and a minimum of 3 psychic powers (and if you go the full monty of Doom and Jinx, 5 psychic powers and another warlock, making your support for them quite expensive at approximately 275 points and 3 models). I understand that you are outlining why playing them in Craftworld Aeldari would be better, but if you are taking Y'nnari anyway because that is what the list synergizes well with and you want some additional fire support, it seems like they would be fine for 215 points for 5 dudes that can jump in a wave serpent for another 147 points and have some mortal wound output, the ability to eat elite infantry or to take a relatively decent chunk out of armored troops, and not be a pushover in melee.

so, I'm not sure that just being Ynnari is supposed to give you that level of advantage, in fact, i would argue that the level of advantage conferred by Ynnari before the change over is kind of exactly why it's being changed.

In my experience 5 man squads in Wave Serpents don't do much, they get out and flame something, maybe kill it if they're very lucky, almost certainly don't make their points back and then get shot to bits. If you're running with cannons then you absolutely have to have Guide, you've only got 5 shots and chances are 1 turn to use them, you cannot afford to miss. The point I was trying to make but didn't get across well is that Wraiths are an OK at best unit and need a significant level of support to really work and running them Ynnari means you don't have that support in exchange for a very minor buff to their close combat ability.

Looks like they just did not have the balls to squat them, so instead they make them worthless and not worth taking and then they just disappear next edition when everyone has forgotten about them.

You could do wraithlords and wraithseer with the lost shroud artifact, and back them up with a ynnari detachment of birds, glorious, glorious birds, giving birds the shield of ynnead spell makes them 3 ppw 5++. If you MUST run the yncarne, then add 6+++ to them all but that's less important. You don't have to make yvraine or yncarne warlord though for one command point may as well make the yncarne warlord and give the wraithseer the command point warlord trait