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epronovost wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.

I would be very careful with such argument. Sisters of Battle don't have flyers or other artillery than the Exorcist, no superheavy, etc because they were left to rot for 15 years and GW just now gave them a breath of life. They didn't use to have power sword wielding jump pack equipped troops, now they do. In two years, GW might give the Sisters retroactively every single tool you just mentionned. Space Marines didn't used to have centurion armors or anti-air tanks or flyers before 6th eddition and now they do.

PG 15 Adepta Sororitas Codex

Listed among Order Assets:

- Frateris Templar Battleships
- Cruiser Squadrons
- Secondary Escort Squadrons

PG 14 Clarifies:

"A Militant Order typically maintains its own fleets of orbital assault vessels and macro-landers, but larger battleships and interstellar transports are seconded from the Imperial Navy. These ships may be assigned to an order for decades or even centuries, but are still officially not part of the Ecclesiarchal military."

So those Battleships and Cruisers listed as assets are seconded from the Navy, where the escort class ships may or may not belong to the order. Either way, the Sororitas have reliable access to a fleet. This type of support would be distributed among the Preceptories and Convents, so it doesn't go far, but it's there.

The Avenger Fighter from FW was a Sisters option prior to 8th. I think any faction that doesn't have a flyer yet has a really good chance of getting one this edition- Sisters included, especially since we have a history. If they release the Avenger for a new IG, they can add a sisters bling sprue so we can use it in Sisters army.

PenitentJake wrote:
PG 15 Adepta Sororitas Codex
- Frateris Templar Battleships
- Cruiser Squadrons
- Secondary Escort Squadrons

This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.

I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
(sisters are no longer the chamber militant of the hereticus

When did this happen? That's unfortunate :( What are the chamber's militant now?

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
(sisters are no longer the chamber militant of the hereticus

When did this happen? That's unfortunate :( What are the chamber's militant now?

-STS

they don';t have a chamber militant, GW's been carefully moving back from the whole chamber militants thing since the SOB WD 'dex in 5th edition. the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion

It's genuinely one of the poorer changes of fluff in my opinion. It was genuinely super cool that the ordo's had their own chamber militants, it also made the power of the inquisition more feasible in the sense they could requisition anything to do their bidding, but they also had their own super specialists that could be called in as and when needed.

It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy, but for the deathwatch it made perfect sense they were intertwined with the ordo xenos, as well as the grey knights the malleous, however it would have been important for the grey knights to keep the inquisition more at arms length than the deathwatch.

The hereticus could have had more specialised scions etc to do their bidding with a very close alliance with the sisters, but not have them completely embedded.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy

The ordo hereticus was originally created in the wake of Vandire, to ensure there would never be another like him. So the inquisition, sisterhood, and ecclesiarch(Thor) were on the same page.

A.T. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
It probably made less sense for the sisters to be a chamber militant of the hereticus as they were so closely tied to the ecclesiarchy

The ordo hereticus was originally created in the wake of Vandire, to ensure there would never be another like him. So the inquisition, sisterhood, and ecclesiarch(Thor) were on the same page.

I totally get that, but the ordo hereticus also needs to be independent of the ecclesiarchy, they can work closely with, associated even but they cannot be linked. The sisters linked them. For the sisters to work as the chamber militant they would have to also be divorced from the ecclesiarchy. The ecclesiarchy are a huge potential problem as vandire shown, the ordo hereticus must also be able to hold them to account, specifically Cardinals who over indulge on their specific vice to the point it may gain interest in from the chaos gods.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I totally get that, but the ordo hereticus also needs to be independent of the ecclesiarchy, they can work closely with, associated even but they cannot be linked. The sisters linked them. For the sisters to work as the chamber militant they would have to also be divorced from the ecclesiarchy. The ecclesiarchy are a huge potential problem as vandire shown, the ordo hereticus must also be able to hold them to account, specifically Cardinals who over indulge on their specific vice to the point it may gain interest in from the chaos gods.

Strictly speaking the sisters are, or at least were - it's another thing that has been retconned / carelessly overlooked in the new codex (whoever wrote the hierarchy page did so with a very tenuous adherence to established lore)

The Abbess Sanctorum held the rank of high lord and was not subservient to the Ecclesiarch, merely aligned with them. Page 15 of the new codex goes against that but then it also has the sisters organisation including Frateris Templars(defunt for ten thousand years), Tempestus Scions(not even vaguely the same organisation), and so on. It's a bizarre mess of a chart.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion

Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion

Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?

They seem to have gone from an investigative, covert special ops type that destabilises, high value search and destroy, with some amount of overlooking/guarding and being the early warning beacon for specific, potentially dangerous threats type of organisation to a typical but specialised defensive force in key locations type of outfit, not so much investigation and cloak and dagger style any longer which is a shame I personally think.

It comes after turning them into an army though, they should have always being an ally kill teams only force, with a dreadnaught here and there maybe, nothing else. It's just like grey knights for me though personally, they were so much cooler when all that was ever needed was 5x in terminator armour. Ultra rare and never in larger numbers except for once or twice in the fluff for the biggest threats...

Oh well, the lift on that box got lifted long ago, I shouldn't still be complaining about it.

A.T. wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
PG 15 Adepta Sororitas Codex
- Frateris Templar Battleships
- Cruiser Squadrons
- Secondary Escort Squadrons

This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.

I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.

I think the idea is that any Imperial unit that is seconded offically to the Sororitas is declared as a Frateris Templar, confirming that they are not and never will be part of the Church but still remain under its command for the duration - be that days, weeks, years or centuries.

Obviously warships smaller than "larger battleships" are Sororitas.

No, you are right, I agree with everything you wrote.
Deathwatch as a defensive force? Makes no sense, what's the point of this over a normal chapter?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No, you are right, I agree with everything you wrote.
Deathwatch as a defensive force? Makes no sense, what's the point of this over a normal chapter?

It not quite a “force” being defensive, in most cases from my understanding. Rather, the Deathwatch will have lots of out posts in edge of Imperium Space that will act as early warning stations that might just have a squad or fewer marines and maybe personal or maybe servitors there for upkeep. They might also have bigger fortresses acting as organizing and send-off points for Killteams and greater forces. It’s not clear if the Deathwatch has access to super good warp capable ships along the lines of the Officio Assassinorum, however, they might, which would explain their quick reaction times.

I think it’s kind of fitting that the Ordo Hereticus doesn’t have a hard Chamber Militant anymore. It’s the baby of the Ordos Majoris, and yet it’s the most well known and feared of the major Ordos in the Imperium. And, I’ll be honest, being that there’s no Heretic Hunter specialmarine chapter like we have the Deathwatch and Grey Knights, it really appeals to my desire for congruency that they don’t have chamber instead of having to prop themselves with Sisters of Battle or Silence or Super stormtroopers. If I wanted to have an Ordo Hereticus force, I like that I’m not quite stuck into Sisters of Battle for allies.

the poroblem with the desth weatch has always been that the astartes are incrediably independant, that they'd all come together to form an orginization that is the inqusition's bitch made little sense, and raises the question of "well what about the chapters that don't trust the inqusition?"

An orginization that is independant, at least on paper, that works, often hand in hand with the inqusition while being free to persue their own agenda makes more sense

That's explained by firstly, chapters are expected to send marines, but not obliged to send them, and for as many chapters that see it an honour to send marines and receive them back (additionally, marines also receive extra training/upto date knowledge and tactics to defeat certain xenos foes, so there is a direct benefit to sending them) other chapters use it as a means to send problem astartes and as a form of penal discipline... You hate inquisitors like all of us, but you keep disobeying orders? Well guess what prize you have just won young man! Astartes can be petty like all of us

The first few days/weeks together for a Kill Team must be pretty awkward.
"
- Hey brother Bobus of the Astral Sticks, how did you end up here?
- Well, I managed to stop a genestealer cult without a single loss of marine life by killing a patriarch in hand to hand combat, and was rewarded with the great honor of being sent to the Deathwatch. What about you brother Johnus of the Pointy Claws?
- Ahah well I was sent here because I gave my squad false information to get them where I could charge him and kill him, because I wanted his jaw as a trophy. It worked but I got my whole squad killed so here I am lol
"
Nice team-mates!!! lol

The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it. Chief among them is being strapped down and forced to watch hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter. While there may be no love between some chapters, the bond a marine feels for his own chapter is extremely potent and can be harmed to make them obey. Even an unruly Minotaur was made to play nice after being sent to watch his chapter dying for hours.

The other and more serious punishment is to be dishonorably discharged back to your chapter. It's an enormous mark of shame for a marine and one that chapters would treat very harshly.

Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.

jareddm wrote:
The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.

I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .

jareddm wrote:
hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.

I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .

jareddm wrote:
Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

The Deathwatch has just as many serfs as any chapter, if not way more because of all the far-flung Watch Stations.

The Deathwatch RPG books go into a lot of this. Watch Stations can be built as data-gathering listening posts full of spy equipment, marines can don Scout Armor and do legitimate recon missions just like normal chapter, information can be acquired through politicking with other Imperial Adepta, and occasionally even xenos sources. Prisoners are taken and interrogated, xenos cogitators can be hacked by techmarines, or xenos relics themselves might be used for various auguries.

I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .

The methods of the Deathwatch are kept by a vow of secrecy agreed by all chapters. Every chapter has secrets, even the proud ones, which is why this vow is so sacred.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

They have observation posts called Watch Stations to monitor a specific threat or location. Teams are sent on intelligence gathering missions. Nearby Imperial organisations would share some intel. Do you think that the Chapters that supply the Deathwatch marines wouldn't share any intel they have obtained. Inquisitors would also likely point out what they think needs to be done, even if directly ordering them is not possible.

Chambers Militant still exist, and largely to the same degree they always have since I started playing. The idea that the Inquisitors have overall operating authority over the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Adepta Sororitas is a misconception based on the way the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters codexes were organized back in the day, but even the fluff of those books made it clear that an Inquisitor doesn't just get power armored henchmen and women and boss them around, they've always needed to appeal to their respective Chamber Militant and have squads loaned to them.

It's certainly harder to represent this on the board - it's harder to represent a pure Inquisition force in general, and much easier to just drop an inquisitor into a fully formed Sisters of Battle force, which can represent them at the head of a large task force assigned by the Sorroritas or an Inquisitor who dropped in on an existing Ecclesiarchy task force and started bossing people around, which is basically the same thing you'd do with an inquisitor in the middle of a Guard or Space Marine army too.

Reading all of this makes me want to start a sister's of battle army hahahaha, I love my elves but having a small group of angelic overly-zealous sisters sounds fun! ♥

If I do, I'll definitely get Celestine

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

jareddm wrote:
The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.

I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .

jareddm wrote:
hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.

I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .

jareddm wrote:
Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

The Deathwatch like any Chapter has numerous serfs in its service, using some of them as intelligence operatives is not beyond the realms of possibility.

It will gain indirect intelligence thorugh other Imperials - especially those with who is has established a good relationship - especially the Ad Mech and the Ordo Xenos

A.T. wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
PG 15 Adepta Sororitas Codex
- Frateris Templar Battleships
- Cruiser Squadrons
- Secondary Escort Squadrons

This is a bizarre discontinuity in the new book. The frateris templars are the original soldiers of the Ecclesiarchy who (along with their fleets) were ended after Vandires death. Their inexistance is the primary point behind the decree passive which is central to the sisters existance.

I have no idea what GW were up to including that. It's like seeing a modern space marine chapter breakdown which includes remembrancers and thunder warriors.

All it simply means is that those battle ships were Frateris Templar, or were a class called Frateris Templar.

 Luunar wrote:
Reading all of this makes me want to start a sister's of battle army hahahaha, I love my elves but having a small group of angelic overly-zealous sisters sounds fun! ♥

If I do, I'll definitely get Celestine

You're not alone, it's a gorgeous sculpt. Maybe after I complete my BT...they should get along nicely.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

jareddm wrote:
The Deathwatch is aware of possible conflicts like this and has disciplinary actions to handle it.

I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .

jareddm wrote:
hours of video from failed missions of your own chapter being killed, supplied by their chapter.

I'm surprised the chapters all have that, and even MORE surprised that the proud ones are willing to share it .

jareddm wrote:
Though the independent nature of the Deathwatch is such that they do just as many operations based on their own intelligence and agenda as they do for Inquisitors requesting their assistance.

How do an organization composed only of marines get any kind of intelligence?

Kill-marines. Scouts. You name it.

It depends on who is writing the book you are reading. I've never heard of a Space Marine tanking a Tachyon arrow to the face, and shrugging it off. I have read about Sisters doing that. Also, Space marines can't heal mortal wounds by praying REALLY hard. Finally, Space Marines are programed automatons. They are literally designed at the genetic level to be mindless killing machines. Sisters are more. I would say sisters are the epitome of a super-human, but again, it depends on which book you are reading. Sisters don't have built in genetic flaws.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Inqusition has allies they work with yes,m but the death watch, grey knights and sisters are battle are all independant orginizations whom simply work with the inqusition at their discretion

Makes sense for Sisters and Grey Knights, but this is, like, VERY weird for Deathwatch. What is their identity now? Are they investigating on xenos threat all by themselves, doing the science and everything?

It actually doesn't make a lot of sense for the Sisters. Part of the reason the High Lords have accepted the *wink wink, nudge nudge* interpretation that allows the Sisters because they're not "men under arms" is that they were specifically going to be the chamber militant of Ordo Hereticus in addition to the Ecclesiarchy's essentially private military.

The Imperium may love their bureaucracy but just coming out of the largest insurrection since the Horus Heresy, they would have had no qualms about squashing the Adepta Sororitas for violating the spirit of the treaty if not the exact wording.

It would be like saying that the Marines' strike cruisers and battle barges were no longer owned and operated by the Chapters but merely co-opted and provided at the discretion of the Imperial Navy. Doesn't materially affect the table top but raises some weird questions about how they fit into the universe.

Well, they do still have a level of independence from the 'Ecclesiarchy Proper' - the Abbess Sanctorum has a seat at the table on her own behalf and the Adepta Sororitas came into being by executing the Ecclesiarch for heresy.

I still would've preferred the chamber militant thing - especially for the deathwatch; the whole point of them back in Inquisitor days was that they're not a conventional chapter but a group of marines from various chapters that's essentially sworn itself into inquisitorial service, bypassing the 'First Founding Chapter Master Says No' issue where an Inquisitor can theoretically issue orders but in practice hasn't a hope in hell of enforcing them.

I didn't think of it as a conflicts, I just find the idea that you just got a huge honor because you did something awesome, and you talk to your teammate, and you realize they are here because they suck, that's quite the awkward situation .

Far from the most awkward situation. Just imagine a Deathwing veteran and an Executioner talking crap on the shooting range.

"I don't know much about your chapter, I must admit. Sons of Dorn, yes?"
"Yes, brother. We had a sad recent history in the Badab War. We were drawn into the conflict by honour debts and it was too late when realised we had found ourselves fighting against the imperium."
"You....what? What happened?"
"We surrendered, confessed openly, were sent on a hundred year penitent crusade after which our homeworld was returned to us and we were publicly forgiven."
"Wait.....you can DO that?"

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It depends on who is writing the book you are reading. I've never heard of a Space Marine tanking a Tachyon arrow to the face, and shrugging it off. I have read about Sisters doing that. Also, Space marines can't heal mortal wounds by praying REALLY hard. Finally, Space Marines are programed automatons. They are literally designed at the genetic level to be mindless killing machines. Sisters are more. I would say sisters are the epitome of a super-human, but again, it depends on which book you are reading. Sisters don't have built in genetic flaws.

Why do you seem to make it a habit to say blatantly and obviously untrue things about the fluff on this board?