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Am I being irrationally too excited about the Soulforge detachment?

In this edition of having decent terrains, an all vehicle list suffers because of said terrain.

This strat largely mitigates this:

Unstoppable Rampage - One Vehicle from your phase that hasn’t moved yet can make a Normal, Advance or Charge move and when they do they can move through horizontal terrain features as if they weren’t there.

 whembly wrote:
Am I being irrationally too excited about the Soulforge detachment?

In this edition of having decent terrains, an all vehicle list suffers because of said terrain.

This strat largely mitigates this:

Unstoppable Rampage - One Vehicle from your phase that hasn’t moved yet can make a Normal, Advance or Charge move and when they do they can move through horizontal terrain features as if they weren’t there.

No that ability is very good. Not just for CC oriented units but imagine having a forgefiend well hidden behind LOS terrain then jumping out turn one to incinerate something. Or jump through a wall to grab an objective. That ability is S tier. That whole detachment is going to be great as long as you maximize the engines. Even maulerfiends are going to be good in it.

 xeen wrote:
I am very disappointed with the cult detachment. That was the one I was most excited for but between the crap rules and removing ranged cultists and no guard allies like brood brothers. I am like meh.

Some of the other detachments look cool though. And veterans is gonna be fire.

Eh. Predators are still competitive versus Russ tanks with orders. I think I'll still use it, just gotta bring 6xTraitor Guard squads and use CSM vehicles instead of Russes. Besides, I gotta bring a squad in a Rhino to dunk on the loyalists on what they're missing out on.

(There's a non-zero chance I'm coping because nothing else fits a theme of A.I. Worshipping Cultists that wouldn't require a massive amount of conversions ).

I'm not sure anyone would ever run it - but in terms of the Cult Detachment I think:

1*5 Dark Commune
3*16 Accursed Cultists
6*20 Cultists
6*10 Traitor Guard
3*10 Fellgor

Is 2k points, and nets you 263 models and 302 wounds.

The obvious strategy is to just drown the Primary objectives in bodies, and you are making just about any weapon profile better than a boltgun a waste of points. (Admittedly, actually deploying this many models might prove an issue - but that's what reserves are for...)

Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would ever run it - but in terms of the Cult Detachment I think:

1*5 Dark Commune
3*16 Accursed Cultists
6*20 Cultists
6*10 Traitor Guard
3*10 Fellgor

Is 2k points, and nets you 263 models and 302 wounds.

The obvious strategy is to just drown the Primary objectives in bodies, and you are making just about any weapon profile better than a boltgun a waste of points. (Admittedly, actually deploying this many models might prove an issue - but that's what reserves are for...)

I'm trying to decide if I want to accept that challenge, though I know for a fact that I don't want to paint it...

Traitor Guard are not Battleline so you can only bring 3 not 6

Leaves room for Rhinos though

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Traitor Guard are not Battleline so you can only bring 3 not 6

Leaves room for Rhinos though

The chaos cult detachment makes them battleline

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would ever run it - but in terms of the Cult Detachment I think:

1*5 Dark Commune
3*16 Accursed Cultists
6*20 Cultists
6*10 Traitor Guard
3*10 Fellgor

Is 2k points, and nets you 263 models and 302 wounds.

The obvious strategy is to just drown the Primary objectives in bodies, and you are making just about any weapon profile better than a boltgun a waste of points. (Admittedly, actually deploying this many models might prove an issue - but that's what reserves are for...)

I'm trying to decide if I want to accept that challenge, though I know for a fact that I don't want to paint it...

But you would make a store very happy if you need to buy even half, that’s not a cheap army.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Traitor Guard are not Battleline so you can only bring 3 not 6

Leaves room for Rhinos though

The chaos cult detachment makes them battleline

Well, it will after an FAQ makes it.

(right now the detachment gives units with the TRAITOR GUARDSMEN keyword BATTLELINE, but Traitor Guardsmen only have the TRAITOR GUARDSMEN SQUAD keyword...)

(And of course, to be clear, the intent is obvious and I would not argue that a list is invalid for including 4-6 squads of Traitor Guardsmen before the FAQ)

Sigh...

Just read the Goonhammer review. Legion specific Crusade content is out.

On the plus side, it means my 9th ed dex still has game value, because feth GW if they think I'm not going force flavour into subfaction even if I have to use chainsword to do it.

Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would ever run it - but in terms of the Cult Detachment I think:

1*5 Dark Commune
3*16 Accursed Cultists
6*20 Cultists
6*10 Traitor Guard
3*10 Fellgor

Is 2k points, and nets you 263 models and 302 wounds.

The obvious strategy is to just drown the Primary objectives in bodies, and you are making just about any weapon profile better than a boltgun a waste of points. (Admittedly, actually deploying this many models might prove an issue - but that's what reserves are for...)

So I think you could make something like this work. I would not bring fellgor (they suck) and maybe cut down the traiter guard to three squads which is still 150 bodies. I think to make it playable and not just meme, you would need some fire support like forgefiends, vindicators etc. Also one solid brick of CC marines/terminators would help, you could use the strat to block shooting with a big cultist squad. Abaddon with chosen would probably fit that nicely. You would probably have to reduce the cultists a bit or maybe one of the accursed, but I think you could squeze some fire support in, depending on final points. I just played a Nid player who used the endless swarm and swamped the board with bodies supported by a few big stuff and it was a tough game. I think this kind of list would be great against some armies, but get killed by anyone with the firepower to chew though it, like TS with all the flamers.

Also I think chosen with Abbadon will be central to a lot of lists. It works in basically every detachment and having advance and charge on Abbadon is money to get him into kill range.

The renegade detachment is going to be awesome. The advance and shoot it great for making obliterators and terminators actually fast so you can just start them on the board (advance and charge strat helps here too), helps with allowing chosen to fire and charge, and has some nice tricks for infantry out of transports. Also, if you bring a 10 man Rubric squad with flamers, they can advance and shoot, which will make them super deadly.

I can't wait to get the codex.

 xeen wrote:
So I think you could make something like this work. I would not bring fellgor (they suck) and maybe cut down the traiter guard to three squads which is still 150 bodies. I think to make it playable and not just meme, you would need some fire support like forgefiends, vindicators etc. Also one solid brick of CC marines/terminators would help, you could use the strat to block shooting with a big cultist squad. Abaddon with chosen would probably fit that nicely. You would probably have to reduce the cultists a bit or maybe one of the accursed, but I think you could squeze some fire support in, depending on final points. I just played a Nid player who used the endless swarm and swamped the board with bodies supported by a few big stuff and it was a tough game. I think this kind of list would be great against some armies, but get killed by anyone with the firepower to chew though it, like TS with all the flamers.

You might be right - but I think there's a danger that by making it a more "normal" list, you potentially dilute the skew.

As you say, by taking away all (or at least 2, as one is a potentially objective scoring unit) of the Fellgor units, 3 Traitor Guard, 60 Cultists and say 1 unit of Accused Cultists you are up to 900-1000 points for other things. The issue with taking say Abbadon+Chosen, Forgefiends and Vindicators etc, is that you are starting to turn it into a conventional CSM list.
In which case, why not go the full hog, and ditch the rest of the traitor guard, probably the regular cultists etc? After all, if the meat of your list is in the other units, there's no point taking the Chaos Cult detachment. And without the stratagems, there's not much point taking the cultists at all.

There's also an issue that your opponent goes from "everything S5 and AP-2 or better is kind of pointless." To "I shoot the tanks with my anti-tank, the Chosen with my anti-Elite weapons and hit the cultists with my S4 AP-".

The debate to my mind (and its really a hypothetical one - as I wouldn't expect someone to have these models) is whether this version of the archetype is better than say Tyranid Endless Swam or other faction equivalents of "hordes of models, just swarm the primary objectives."

As you say - I think the CSM Codex looks great. I think the Renegade Detachment looks excellent. The Soulforged one looks good if you want to spam vehicles. The Pactbound is probably fine if you have more of a mix. Things like Deceptors and Dread Talons are probably more on the "fun" end over pure competitive, but fun is still fun.

Yea I get it but I don’t think the cultist models would be able to do enough damage and just putting bodies won’t be enough against most lists.

Though I also don’t think anyone owns that many cultists. I only have 50 and that includes the range ones

I'm sooo glad that GW did the LEAST they could do with the "index" for EC....at least it's worth what we paid for it.

It gave my EC from either being Legends or possibly reconfigured which would push me to either reconstruct completed models or shelve them.

The Noise Marine unit composition is essentially unchanged since the 9th edition codex. I have serious doubts this will remain so once an EC codex gets released.

The EC is, happily for me, just a get you by until the EC codex and not Legends the existing colle tion.

It is not everyone's cup of tea but I am ok with it.

https://www.goonhammer.com/chaos-space-marines-points-update-the-goonhammer-hot-take/

Points up. All decreases mostly small but on several meaningful units like chosen abbadon forgefiend oblits among others.

Can’t wait for Saturday

How about making a soulforged detachment with a rhino. Make It Nurgle for 1 cp a demon vehicle and put one noise Marine or legionaire Squad in with reaper chaincannon.
Then you Nurgle pact and wound+1 + Nurgle pact kill Something before it gets killed and youe troops got transpoted where they should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you can make It in youe command Phase before 6+++ to make a yolo rhino every turn

You can't give marks in Soulforged detachment, so I'm not sure what you mean by making it nurgle or nurgle pacting.

"Each time a HERETIC ASTARTES DAEMON VEHICLE from your army makes a Dark Pact..."

"Dark Pacts are back as the faction’s army rule – but with one major change: You now make your Leadership test before you get the Pact’s effects. Fail and you take D3 mortal wounds. You still get your pick of [SUSTAINED HITS 1] or [LETHAL HITS] for a phase."



So pact possible, Nurgle pacts should be still in it, so that would BE the best for sustained. Vehicle restriction is out - so it you want to bow the Rules to a Maximum noise Marines in Nurgle rhino for Maximum sustained bs with Doom Siren and Blastmaster +1 to wound demon rhino and warpsmith for 6+++.

But of course that is speculation till the rules are official released on wahapedia

As others have said, there are no Marks in Soulforged Warpack, they are not even needed. You can Dark Pact for Autowounds or Extra Hits on a roll of 6. And you can spend 1CP to give it the Daemon Keyword. Doesn't sound worth spending 1CP for two Shots hoping to roll 6s for Extra Effects.

 Fip wrote:
"Each time a HERETIC ASTARTES DAEMON VEHICLE from your army makes a Dark Pact..."

"Dark Pacts are back as the faction’s army rule – but with one major change: You now make your Leadership test before you get the Pact’s effects. Fail and you take D3 mortal wounds. You still get your pick of [SUSTAINED HITS 1] or [LETHAL HITS] for a phase."



So pact possible, Nurgle pacts should be still in it, so that would BE the best for sustained. Vehicle restriction is out - so it you want to bow the Rules to a Maximum noise Marines in Nurgle rhino for Maximum sustained bs with Doom Siren and Blastmaster +1 to wound demon rhino and warpsmith for 6+++.

But of course that is speculation till the rules are official released on wahapedia

While 'Dark Pacts' is the Heretic Astartes faction rule, the Marks themselves are NOT. The god-specific marks are only in the Pactbound Zealots detachment, which is basically the previous Slaves to Darkness detachment with a new name (and is essentially the Word Bearers detachment).

Ergo, you cannot give units specific marks in a Soulforged Warpack detachment.

You Guys dont deserve the blessing of the humble rhino finally ascending to a demon on it s way to become a demon Prince. With +1 to and noise marines inside you will safely clear enemy objectives of 10 trash troops with 10 + D6+D6 Shots wounding on 2s on toughness 3. Basically just to spare one that the humble rhino can conquer the objective and crush him with his tracks and +2 attacks for one more victim pathing his way to become a demon prince and weathering all enemy Return Fire with a 6+++ from a Warp Smith.

All our enemies will despair and in the end you will finally bow to the humble rhino demon prince that you mistreated so harshly.

Hi all,

I've been doing some testing of the Pactbound detachment, as its closest to the old list archetype I was using with the Terminator brick. Here's the list:


Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour* (Slaanesh)

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (Nurgle)

Master of Executions (Slaanesh)

Obliterators (Tzeentch)(x2)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Chaos Terminators (Nurgle)(x10)

Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5)

Legionnaires (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Rhino (Slaanesh)

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8)

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Venomcrawler (Nurgle)

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Havocs (Nurgle)(x5)

Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)


Allies

Nurglings (x3)


* Intoxicating Elixir


I've been doing some speculative testing and have had some interesting results. I notice that the Marks no longer stipulate a phase, but instead refer to when a unit shoots or fights. If right, it means that you can pact on Overwatch. That would increase the lethality of the Terminator brick unit I'd been using dramatically. I've replaced Abaddon with a Sorcerer in the unit.

So some scenarios based on my testing:

1) Playing bullies likes Tide Orks. They drop the indestructible MANZ unit on the center objective on Turn 1, out the back of a wagon and call a WAAGH!. In my Turn I blow up the wagon and the objective gets flooded with more MANZ. The Terminators jump out from behind a wall in my DZ: the Sorcerer puts Hex on the non-indestructible MANZ. I shoot the indestructible unit and drop three. In his next turn, one is resurrected and they move out. I then trigger Overwatch, which has a 105% conversion on account of the pact. Its like having to deal with a second round of shooting. Now not in WAAGH, that unit is dropped to the Mek; even if was in WAAGH! again, that would probably be the result.

The second unit charges the Terminators, with Hex. I lose one or two and then the return attacks, again, wipe that unit (reroll hits, exploding 6's, extra -1 on AP etc.). With the third unit of MANZ, I just rinse and repeat this next turn.

I use the MANZ scenario, because Orks are the quintessential bully army: I don't think anyone does it better, in this example one Terminator unit has effectively single-handedly held off the entire midfield against them.

2) Against Tau, I did something similar. I moved an AC unit out of my DZ ruin near the center objective, with the Terminators just behind. Tau Turn 1 Coldstar Crisis unit jumps out behind a ruin hoping to pick up the AC, or a few Terminators and jump back behind a wall, Ghostkeel moves to get angles on them too. Overwatch from the Terminators drops the Crisis unit to just the Commander (!). I lose only a few of the mutants, without the Overwatch the unit would have most certainly been picked up. They then surge onto the center objective. Ghostkeel and the other unit on the objective won't shoot the AC, for fear of surging into them and the Commander has to choose between hiding and sacrificing himself, to take me off the objective. A bit of a check mate there, thanks to the Terminators.

3) Against Aeldari, I advance the AC unit onto the objective after Scouting and push the Terminators out of the DZ, but stay out of 18" of the enemy DZ. Wraithguard attempt to counter, moving from behind a wall, knowing the Overwatch may kill a few, but then shooting at the AC and jumping back behind the wall. However, the Overwatch from the Terminators kills three. Again, I lose only a few mutants and the surge move takes them close enough to dissuade other units from shooting them, in case they surge into the Wraithguard.

I haven't had a chance to test against SW or WE, but I'm sure similar tactics can work there.

There are some other tactics and standouts from the list, but I just wanted to demonstrate this interaction, as like a lot of the rules in the new Codex they can be extremely powerful, but are quite well hidden.

Best,
Samii.

You just have the Lord running around on his own?

I am not sure I understand overwatch effectiveness. It still requires a 6 to hit, does it not?

-Combi-bolter (assuming this is what you used as Combi-weapon is not useful vs Crisis Suits).
-Assuming within 12" and sustained hits 1.
-40 shots. 6-7 hits. Reroll for another 5-6 hits netting 11-13 hit. With Sustained Hits 22-26 hits.
-Requires 5 to wound roll vs MANZ or Crisis Suit (I assume MAN are T5 or higher).
-At -1 AP (Death Hex), it causes @ 4 wounds (less if they have a better than. 3+ save).

-Combi bolter with Lethal Hits. 20 shots with rerolls @ 6 hits/wounds

It is good Overwatch but not nearly as efficient as you are demonstrating.

I am clearly missing something as I have my brick of Terminators painted from 9th edition and would love more efficient shooting from them.

Though, it does have me looking at the Terminator Sorcerer as free reroll to
Advance and Charge roll seems really good, especially in the Renegade Raider detachment.

Dark pacts crit on 5+ if your Nurgle. In the Index there was a stipulation that you could only gain them in the fight or shooting phase. Now that's gone.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
Dark pacts crit on 5+ if your Nurgle. In the Index there was a stipulation that you could only gain them in the fight or shooting phase. Now that's gone.

Best,
Samii.

Does it over ride the Overwatch requirement. It states specifically needing unmodified 6 to hit. It makes no mention of Critical hits.

I may have gotten ahead of myself: I just read the Rules Commentary. In Overwatch, crits are only scored on 6+ 😞.

Best,
Samii.

All is not lost though. You got me thinking this early morning.

Renegade Raiders
Sorcerer
10 Terminators
Mark of Hound (6" Scout)

Assuming opponent does not screen me out by placing Infiltrators 9" in front of the unit.

Scout, Advance, Stratagem to allow Advance and Charge. Sorcerer gives reroll to Advance and Charge rolls.

And all ranged weapons have Assault keyword.

On balance, losing crits on 5+ isn't as big a deal as I thought. Its a drop of about 33%, just on that round of shooting. So before, I was converting (in Overwatch and the shooting phase) about 260% of the time, when it should be closer to 220%. That would not have heavily changed the outcomes.

I was just looking for something cool in the Pactbound detachment, as the others seem to have gotten a lot of stuff.

Best,
Samii.