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In terms of overall power lets say Magnus would have to face down a Daemon Prince who was once just a normal human. But this human spawned daemon prince has age on its side. But Magnus is a Primarch. Does that make him innately stronger than other daemon princes and greater daemons?

I would think that the gifts of the gods would negate any physical differences between a Primarch and a human at that point. Magnus may be a Primarch, but if another Prince had gained far more favor from the gods, and thus, more 'gifts', I would imagine the other Prince would be the more powerful.

During the battle between Horus and the Emperor, the chaos gods kept pouring power into Horus to make him a better match for the Emperor.

I would say that if the Chaos gods thought that they had something to gain from the victory, then they would pour power into a Daemon prince in order for him to destroy Magnus...but the Chaos gods are fickle...

Well, Magnus wasn't just a "bigger" dude. As a primarch, his greatest strength was actually in the power of his spirit. As such, a Primarch (I'd think) would make a vastly more powerful Daemon Prince. Maybe even on par with or stronger than a greater daemon even... Agre is great, but princes who live in the timeless warp don't seem to gain much strength over time.

Hmm, which has GW's fluff and background story righters behind them in the conflict? The victor would go to whomever would more easily take the game backdrop in the direction GW wanted to go. Or in other words, in a conflict between two characters in a fantasy world, go with the one who has a beneficent script writer on their side.

Sanguis(sp) broke a blood thisters back on his nee, so primarchs are already incredibly strong.

I'm not too sure whether the 'base' model (human/ork/primarch) would make much difference...if the circumstances were right.

A simple aspiring champion can turn into a bloodthirster.

Like I said before, it depends on the whim of the chaos gods. How can you kill something that can be reanimated? If the gods will it then they can make the lowliest creature into the most powerful of foes.

It depends on whether the right sacrifices/chaotic fervor is going on and how much the specific chaos power has influence at the time.

On a Daemon world where the chaos power holds court, I would say a daemon prince that was made from a child could be more powerful than a primarch...but on a 'non chaos' world, chaos influence would be limited and so the power given to the daemon prince would be less...even if the base model was a very powerful super soldier.

A Primarch is not only physically superior to a normal human but also more intelligent and, in some cases, more psychically powerful. A being like Magnus was raised to DP status in the first place because of his sheer capacity for knowledge, incredible psychic talent, and astounding intellect. In other words, the qualities that Tzeentch found most useful were not primarily physical.

@Inso: Aspiring Champions do not become Bloodthirsters or any other Greater Daemon. Their mind/bodies/souls are merely the gateway for such beings to enter the Materium. The Champion is killed in the process.

the power of a mortal depends on his own power. so i can say Primarch for sure is strong than other human or space marines. however, in the chaos side, the power comes all from the chaos gods, especially you become a deamon prince. from then on you are pretty much his puppet. they can gain you power whenever they want also take it away whenever they want. so if you are a Primarch or not does not effect the power. just rely on the mood of the gods.

Manchu...isn't a Daemon Prince a mortal on the way to Daemonhood? In time he loses all self and becomes a daemon...depending on the gifts he is given.

Yes, a Primarch is super good on so many levels...but it still rests with the chaos gods as to what they do with him. The usual thing is 'power comes but at a cost'...

And yes, an aspiring champion is destroyed on transformation...but whether on not the human survived is irrelevant because he becomes a Bloodthirster. He may just be the fertilizer but the acorn of the bloodthirster needs something to grow in otherwise it won't become the oak of the greater daemon.

If nothing else it proves that a worthless aspiring champion can become something all powerful...even if it isn't directly HIM. In the end, all daemon princes aspire to god hood and as a result take more and more gifts until they are no longer what they once were...in physical, mental and psychic terms.

Well, it's not really that the Aspiring Champion is providing fertilizer to allow the Bloodthirster to grow into a Greater Daemon at all, actually. The Greater Daemon existed in the warp prior to its entry into the material plane. All it needed was a gateway.

Without intervention from the chaos gods I think a primarch would be a more powerful daemon prince than a normal DP. I am not sure where but I have read that CSM can survive much more chaos power than normal humans. Their strengthened bodies mean they can take a lot more mutation before they loose their mind and become a tentacled mess. From this I could guess that a Primarch could withstand much more chaos power. Primarch are also near to the power of a human DP anyway and we know that the gifts they recieve improve on this so I would say a Primarch DP would be much more powerful.

This is assuming they both have recevied equall gifts.

If not the normal DP would require so much more chaotic energy to be a match for a primarch that its unlikely it would survive it. Another point is that very few individuals had recieved as many improvements as a primarch. The Primarch killed millions for the chaos gods very few people could match that so wouldn't be so popular with the gods.

Shelegelah wrote:Well, it's not really that the Aspiring Champion is providing fertilizer to allow the Bloodthirster to grow into a Greater Daemon at all, actually. The Greater Daemon existed in the warp prior to its entry into the material plane. All it needed was a gateway.

I wasn't being literal...I was trying to say that no matter how it happens, the aspiring champion changes into a bloodthirster 'in some way'...whether he dies/changes/is swapped or what...without the aspiring champion, the bloodthirster wouldn't pop by to say hello so in a non literal sense, the champion becomes all powerful.

Look at it this way...one minute you're chopping away at a chaos champion...the next there's a bloodthirster there!

Is there such a thing as a standard daemon prince? Surely they are each moulded by their patron god?...and what of the Primarch? Some of them were all brawn others were more psychic/magical...maybe their individual talents may stand them in good stead against a daemon prince but I would also suggest that there would be primarchs that were better against them than others...but whether they were more powerful...that would depend on the chaos influence.

Sanguinius broke a bloodthirster over his knee but was struck down by the daemon prince, Horus...was it because Horus was a Primarch and Daemon prince or whether it was just the daemon prince acting through the puppet of a primarch...who knows?

The chaos gods interfere with the material world a lot less than people seem to think. The daemons (greater and lesser) are the ones who attempt to play in the 'real' world. The chaos gods do apply a certain 'force' in favour of people doing things they like, but this is through a chaos daemon, not really directly.

To the gods, even someone like horus is little more than a large ant in a colony of trillions.

A daemon prince remains whatever he was before he was a daemon prince, but is then 'infused' with the power of their given god. The primarch already possessed immense 'power' of their own (warp presence?) and so would be only more powerful.

A Primarch Daemon prince would be obscene. A 'mortal' primarch could defeat a greater daemon and almost NO daemon prince is even the match for a greater daemon!

Hope that helps.

I don't think Horus was yet a daemon prince when he fought the Emperor, but if he had of survived I think he would have been made one, even in defeat. He resulted in the deaths of thousands of people in the gods' names and defiled the palace itself. Angron was made DP for a similar, if less impressive feat.


Age and experience as a DP may have an impact. Horus wasn't being guarded by the other primachs, he was by two DP, one of which was stated as having once been a human warlord on Terra before the birth of the Emperor. And who looked more demonic (closer to a greater demon) than most DPs do, so may have continued the process of gradual change at the discretions of Khorne.

Well, daemon princes are somewhat scorned by greater daemons, who see them as lesser creatures because of their, "mortal taint". Ironic actually. Anyway, the greater daemons are direct reflections of the gods themselves, and so, their opinions differ very little from their creator.
As such, a daemon prince will never become a greater daemon. They may however surpass them in a case like a Primarch. Angron's stats, for example, are SICK.

It actually depends on how long the Daemon Prince has been a Daemon Prince.

In Slaves to Darkness, once your Champion became a Daemon Prince, it could have it sponsor other champions. And whenever these champions did well, the Daemon Prince received rewards and wounds. And even if the champion that the Daemon Prince sponsored became a DP and sponsored another Champion, the original DP would still get rewards! DP's could be sponsored if they were originally champions.

Essentially you could have a Daemon Prince sponsor another Daemon Prince who would sponsor another Daemon Prince who sponsored 3 Champions. The Daemon Prince got a reward for each of its guys that got a reward, so in my example, if all 3 of the champions got a reward, all 3 Daemon Princes got a reward. And let's not forget that the lead Daemon Prince got rewards for sponsoring the champions while they were still fighting!

So you could end up with monstrosities with 30 wounds, so the book recommends not using them in-game, for obvious reasons.

In the end, there are undoubtedly Daemon Princes much, much stronger than Angron and would laugh if Angron even tried to come near one of them.