Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok,

1) Creed's apoc formation requires a "heroic senior officer." In the diagram they have Yarrik modeled. However, his is not a "senior officer." The only senior officers are Company Commanders, who aren't heroic, Creed, who is already in the squad, and Straken, who isn't the modeled officer in the image... nor does he really fit with the feel of this very Cadian, very regmental and not Straken at all... formation.

(see image below)

The question is: Can I use any Heroic HQ option? Or would you guys basically say that Straken is the only one available to use?

2) The Imperial Shield formation uses a bunch of command squads. I wanted to know if I could use the command squads from Creed's formation as part of the other formations. I still have to buy the extra formations, but there are no rules (as far as I can see) that prevent you from using same models in different formations. So long as they all deploy within 6" of each other, per formation rules.

1. Use a Company Commander, the HQ choice, as a Herioc Senior Officer, was a HQ choice in the old Guard Codex
2. I don't know

Lt Lathrop wrote:1) Creed's apoc formation requires a "heroic senior officer." In the diagram they have Yarrik modeled.

There's no sign of Yarrik in the picture you posted.

The 'Heroic Senior Officer', as statu pointed out, is just the top-level officer from the last codex. In the Command Squad pictured, that would be represented by the Cadian Officer model.

The question is: Can I use any Heroic HQ option? Or would you guys basically say that Straken is the only one available to use?

Since the Datasheet is effectively out of date, since it refers to choices that no longer exist, you're going to have to decide on that with your opponent. The simplest fix though would simply be to replace the 'Heroic Senior Officer' with the Company Commander, since that's the equivalent in the new codex.

2) The Imperial Shield formation uses a bunch of command squads. I wanted to know if I could use the command squads from Creed's formation as part of the other formations.

A formation is a distinct entity. Whilst there is nothing that specifically says that a unit can't be a part of two different formations, it would cause issues... Specifically with deployment, where you are required to deploy the entire formation at once, which is impossible if a unit belongs to two different formations.

So long as they all deploy within 6" of each other, per formation rules.

I haven't seen any rule requiring Formations to deploy within any set distance. They all deploy at the same time, but that's the only requirement that I'm aware of.

insaniak wrote:
I haven't seen any rule requiring Formations to deploy within any set distance. They all deploy at the same time, but that's the only requirement that I'm aware of.

I assume he was talking about meeting the requirements for both formations, the picture above says 'Each of the command squads must be deployed within 6"...'

Yea, basically all the IG formations have to have all their parts deployed within so many inches of each other... and that was the only restriction I've seen as to fielding formations.

While I'm at it... what are the costs for things like the "Commisar" and "Psyker" as you can't buy them seperately? Do I just take a 10pt psyker, and a 35pt Commisar from the Psyker squad and platoons?

Supreme Command - 200
Creed - 90
CCS - 50
Psyker - 10
Commisar - 35
Priest - 45
Techpriest - 45
3xCCS - 150

625pts

Does that look right?

Gorkamorka wrote:

insaniak wrote:I haven't seen any rule requiring Formations to deploy within any set distance. They all deploy at the same time, but that's the only requirement that I'm aware of.

I assume he was talking about meeting the requirements for both formations, the picture above says 'Each of the command squads must be deployed within 6"...'

Ah, of course... Missed that on the sheet. I was looking for a general Formations rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lt Lathrop wrote:While I'm at it... what are the costs for things like the "Commisar" and "Psyker" as you can't buy them seperately? Do I just take a 10pt psyker, and a 35pt Commisar from the Psyker squad and platoons?

The only way to get those two into a Command Squad under the current codex would be to take a Lord Commissar and a Primaris Psyker.

Yea, but we have already established I am not going to be getting anything like what I am "supposed" to be taking.

Considering that I can't take Creed as a seperate model either, I respectfully state the point is moot.

Hence my point that this is a situation you're going to need to discuss with your opponent. The datasheet is out of date. It doesn't work under the current codex. So if you want to use it, you're going to need to house rule it to suit the newer rules.

Personally, I would think that the closest you're going to get is to take a Company Command squad, replace the Company Commander with Creed, and add in a Lord Commissar and a Primaris Psyker. That's the closest thing in the current codex.

But that's just my opinion. An opponent could as easily say that since the datasheet requires units that no longer exist, you can't use it. That's something you're going to have to take up with them. You're not going to get an answer here that actually means anything on the table.

Thanks for the help... Nid apoc games are up this weekend at my FLGS... and I am determined to burn the little fethers on my IG gunline... and Creed basically giving me every asset I need to do so is wicked helpful.

insaniak wrote:A formation is a distinct entity. Whilst there is nothing that specifically says that a unit can't be a part of two different formations, it would cause issues... Specifically with deployment, where you are required to deploy the entire formation at once, which is impossible if a unit belongs to two different formations.

Just a minor correction here: p101 of the Apoc rulebook actually states (in bold) that a model can only ever be part of one formation.

Otherwise, I agree with everything Insaniak said. By RAW, the formation simply doesn't work, but if you're playing Apocalypse you should really be playing in a friendly environment with people you know anyway. It's quite reasonable that you just replace Commissar with Commissar Lord, Psyker with Primaris Psyker, Priest with Ministorum Priest, and command squads with CCS's but that's really something for you and your opponents to decide.

If you're playing at an event of some sort, just ask the organisers. They're the ones who can approve or deny these sorts of datasheet changes.

Cheexsta wrote:Just a minor correction here: p101 of the Apoc rulebook actually states (in bold) that a model can only ever be part of one formation.

Excellent... Figured it was probably in there somewhere, but didn't see it on a quick skim. Was expecting it to be in the formations section, rather than on the example page.

So as a conclusion to all of this. The owner of the my FLGS and the organizer of Nid Apoc Tourney decided to appove the formation, and any proxies I decided were my "best attempt" at getting the models it asks for.

All told I am going to have a 2000pt apoc list (there are going to be about 20x 2000pt lists there, from what I understand). I will have a 1000pt Creed Supreme Command, giving me a total of 5 Strat Assets, so I can build bunkers and walls across the whole side of the map. I am currently building the bunkers and walls now... they will be tall enoguh to obscure my artillery batteries (another 300pts), and then I will have 6 squads of infantry and upgrades (600pts) inside the bunkers and behind the walls.

Yea. That's right, I am bringing an infantry apoc list. What ya gonna do about it?!

Lol! Like apocalypse really matters.

Since you pay actual model costs, plus the formation cost, I would get as close as you can. Then run it by your opponents and get their buy in. If the formation included the models, I would say you could do the same but negotiate a new cost based on the updated units.

Homer

Lt Lathrop wrote:So as a conclusion to all of this. The owner of the my FLGS and the organizer of Nid Apoc Tourney decided to appove the formation, and any proxies I decided were my "best attempt" at getting the models it asks for.

Excellent. Glad it worked out.

That's right, I am bringing an infantry apoc list. What ya gonna do about it?!

There's an Apocalypse army thread in the P&M section. If you haven't already, be sure to post pics

More importantly, what's the role of this formation?

I am playing in the Nid Apoc Tourney at my FLGS. I am planning on taking the defensive line asset (apoc reloaded) and the assets from Creed's command. I will then take my 6 bunkers, and my 3 feet of 3+ cover, and build a hex stronghold (with supreme HQ in the middle, confering to all of the bunkers). I will deploy this as far forward as I can manage. I will then place a vets squad in each bunker, armed with AC and GLs. Through Creed's command I have 4 CCS, each will bring 1 MoO, giving me 4 total. These MoO will hang out with 3 basilisk (with spotting rounds via arty battery formation, apoc). These artillery will hang out inside the stronghold, safe. The walls and bunkers are about 2" high (I am building them) so they will confer 3+ obscured to the vehicles inside, and with camo netting, the Basilisk will have a total 2+ obscured save.

This totals 2000pts. I expect (more like hope and pray to the Holy Emperor) to end up with a particularly effective gunline, that will protect my team's deployment zone, and my artillery, and also reach a good 4' into no-man's land. The artillery is pretty self explainatory. I expect a lot of hordes and MCs, and a good number of outflankers and deep strikers, via the new Nids rules. I intend to protect my team's flank and rear from a neigh impenetrable fortress, while laying down a considerable amount of large blast destruction every turn, that has unbeatable 2+ saves. My roommate is also bringing an Ork Pulsa Rokkit (apoc reload) that we made from scratch, which we are going to place inside my fortress, until he fires it.

My roommate said he might take minefields, (or if I get 2 assets) which he will wrap around my gunline, at about one foot out... so the nids will have to roll through dagerous/diffcult terrain just as they enter rapid fire range of my bunkers. If he doesn't he is gonna end up taking roks.