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I may have missed something, but this piece of wargear on the Land Sppeder Storm feels pretty much useless to me. 5 scouts, even well equipped for the Assault Phase (lets say a Pfist and 4 CCW+Bolt Pistoleers) probably isn't going to cause alot of enemy units to break in one round of assault. And furthermore, is -2 Ld really that big a deal?

I'm just saying, there are so many more useful things they could have done instead.

I guess my "proposal" is to say that they should have made the Storm an assault vehicle instead of giving it the Cerebus lancher, or made the Cerebus Launcher grant additional attacks, or said feth it and replaced the damned thing with an Astartes Grenade Launcher.

Commander Endova wrote:I may have missed something, but this piece of wargear on the Land Sppeder Storm feels pretty much useless to me. 5 scouts, even well equipped for the Assault Phase (lets say a Pfist and 4 CCW+Bolt Pistoleers) probably isn't going to cause alot of enemy units to break in one round of assault. And furthermore, is -2 Ld really that big a deal?

I'm just saying, there are so many more useful things they could have done instead.

I guess my "proposal" is to say that they should have made the Storm an assault vehicle instead of giving it the Cerebus lancher, or made the Cerebus Launcher grant additional attacks, or said feth it and replaced the damned thing with an Astartes Grenade Launcher.

What if you use another unit to assault , and have cerebus launcher as support?

It's do able, but the whole point is that it's supposed to give an advantage to the scouts.

Yes the cerburus launcher is good. I've wiped out a squad of 30 guardsmen in turn 1 due to it before. Combat goes badly and you only win by 1? Well that's still a -3 LD test which is good enough against a good number of foes to make them run.

You can butcher Tau even their Kroot with so armed scouts, 5 scouts in a LS Storm with heavy flamer even has a decent chance against 20 Ork Boyz! Again the cerberus Launcher can be key ensuring they run. The scouts won;t last very long so they need to break the enemy on the turn they assault the Cerberus launcher helps them do that.

How are the Guardsmen not stubborn with a blob squad of 30?

Butchering Tau and Kroot is a moot point... they do that well already, it's just adding insult to injury.

It's just another perk on a questionable unit IMO. Another reason to use it to balance out the number of reasons not to use it.

How are the Guardsmen not stubborn with a blob squad of 30?

How does their stubborn work? I don't have the IG codex but there wouldn't be anything like 30 once the combat is done normally less than 20 if that makes a difference?

It's just another perk on a questionable unit IMO. Another reason to use it to balance out the number of reasons not to use it.

I'm not saying it is a game winner but as you say it is a nice perk on one of the best choices in the army anyway.

Well..the have options for HQs that have Stubborn Auras at the least.
There could be a Cannonese running around with a book of St. Lucius... or there could be a Commissar Lord or Commisar, nearby or in the unit respectively.

I don't have the IG book on hand as well...but I think the foundation of the Blog squad is the virtue of being Stubborn.

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I wouldn't really call it a perk in my book.
Combat scouts (at a 5 man squad) is meh.
Vs. MEQ it's not likely to win.
Vs. GEQ they will kill them regardless.

So the -3 is there to punish really poor rolling for MEQ and to pour salt on GEQ's wounds.
Perk? Yea, but it's moot and not nice in my book.

As for 'best' choice...whatever floats your boat.

If IG are using big blob squads, they normally attach a commissar to make them Stubborn. Stubborn ignores all negative LD mods.

Vs. MEQ it's not likely to win.

? It is more likely to win vs 5 MEQs than the MEQs are depending on equipment of course assuming vanilla tactical or devastator marines. Grey Hunters no, CSM depends on if they have a fist to match yours. Used correctly they are a fantastic choice and work brilliantly with a Pedro Sternguard DP assault. 4 attacks each and 4 PF attacks from the sarge would worry any MEQ squad.

Just don't send them against other assault squads as they will get hammered (well they can take on 20 Boyz).

So the cerebus launcher is good against things that are piss easy to kill in combat anyway? Oh thank god for that! I was having so much trouble dealing with those tau in combat...

So the cerebus launcher is good against things that are piss easy to kill in combat anyway? Oh thank god for that! I was having so much trouble dealing with those tau in combat...

It's also good against Ork boyz and really ensures they break, I've seen a squad of 16 Kroot take out 5 Vanguard Veterans and again here they would be strong 2nd favourites and the cerberus launcher should see them routed.

As mentioned before IG Blob squads that aren't stubborn. Chaos Space Marines are great for this win combat by just 2 and he thinks he has Ld8 but it is Ld6 and you've a decent chance to sweep him.

As I said it is not a game winner but a nice boost to help the scouts out if they roll badly and only win combat by 1-2 (which can happen).

You shouldn't be sending the scouts against decent CC troops anyway as they'll lose pretty much everytime except against Orks.

I think instead of -2 to LD, it should be -2 to initiative and -1 to WS.

Because, you'd be scrambling for cover going Ohshi- ohshi-.

you wouldn't have time to focus on you're oponent.

but units that have counterstrike would be unafected.

I think instead of -2 to LD, it should be -2 to initiative and -1 to WS.

If it did this you'd have to up the points of the unit. It would effectively make the scouts WS4 and the Sarge WS5 then they'd be hitting HARDER than assault squads and would have a huge advantage for sweeping advances. Against Orks it would be basically auto-sweep unless he rolls a 6 and me a 1!

It would be too OP.

Consider a LSS with Heavy Flamer vs a normal Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer.

They have the same AV and weapon, BS is irrelevant so they are directly comparable. The LSS is only 10 points more and that includes the cerberus launcher and the ability to transport troops, I'd pay the 10 points just for the transport capacity! In effect you are paying 2-3 points max for the cerberus launcher so it being a marginal boost is about right.

@FlingitNow:
No offense, but you gotta keep things level, at least say you are not sure about:

Blob squads = stubborn. There's no way around that, non-stubborn just doesn't exist unless the opponent is an idiot throwing around a 30 man squad waiting to be screwed with Ld/morale tests.

Chaos Space Marines, lets assume a havoc squad.
5 Pitsols from scouts... lets assume BS4...for gaks. They kill 1.

They charge in. Simul.
18 Attacks from the Havocs, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 3 kills.
16 Attacks from scouts, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 4/3 kills, the fist goes 5/4 wounds, totalling 31/12 wounds.
So on a good day, they draw combat.
On an average day, they would lose combat.

So... like I said, it punishes MEQ for rolling poorly. Woop-di-do.

VS ork boyz, it highly depends on what size mob.
You have to be confident of bringing them down past 11 to break them... at which point anything can do that in an MEQ army.

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Consider a LSS with Heavy Flamer vs a normal Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer.

What's the point, they are different.
LSS is open topped, sort of sucks more defensively than the Land Speeder.
Transporting meh troops, great. Only makes that 2 kill points, soft ones at that.
You get nifty deployment options, but almost demands that you know you'll be going first... only 5/6 of the time if you set up first.

Who cares about the 'actual' cost of the cerberus launcher. You are making it sound like a pro but it’s not. It could be ‘free’ and it still doesn’t mean a whole lot when the results are pretty meh.

Feel no pain on plague marines are like 0.5 points per model…whoop whoop……

Its ok IF and only IF you know that you will be going against weak melee armies with few or no Ld10 and/or fearless units.
In an overal tournament where you expect to be facing the usual melee horror armies with high Ld or outright fearless the storms and cerberus is a waste of points otehr then hiding the whole game and claiming an objective on the last turn.

The combo is to weak and relies to much on meeting just the right opponent army to be used in real competitive games.

Which makes it a 'fun' choice, for friendly games.
But, there is no doubt they are great at mixing it up and screwing around with meta, but it's only a deployment issue in regards to neutering the interesting usages of the Storm combo.

And it throws kill points out the window IMO.

Not only are IG blobs normally stubborn but on the rare event they fail they remove a sgt and get a reroll.
The Cerebus launcher does nothing in this case.

5x Scouts on their own won't put a dent in a lot of units out there in HTH.

It's a situational benefit at best.

Killing 30 Guardsmen and a Commissar (the way you get Stubborn for IG squads) with 5 Scouts is a pretty long shot, mathematically. I wouldn't ride on that as a good reason to use it. I don't know much about the Launcher, however, as I have never encountered it, and I still don't have the latest SM codex. When I eventually get my SM army running again, I'm sure there will be a new SM codex or two out, so I'll wait.

It's a pretty cool model though...diorama maybe?

It does alpha strike very well.
It plays into more aggressive play styles.

I just don't think they are consistant enough to be used widely or suggested widely.

Why I don't use them? It's not because I don't want to, it's just that there is just so much competition from work-horse Fast attack choices that we all know work and love that it's hart to fit them in.

It's not just the Storm, it's the storm and some scouts...2 FoC's and choosing them instead of say Attack Bike Squadrons or Land Speeders. To a lesser extent Biker Squads and Assault Marines. The only thing to get less usage would prob. be Vanguard vets...

/shrug, all IMHO.

Yes. My point was that 5 scouts won;t do much in close combat.

I was really hoping for more comments on the idea of replacing/altering the Cerebus, to give the scouts a boost.

Commander Endova wrote:It's do able, but the whole point is that it's supposed to give an advantage to the scouts.

I don't think this the case. When you look at the Landspeeder Storm between the Cerberus Launcher and its Jammers it is more of a support roll vehicle, like all scout units they are more about disrupting the enemies units than direct combat. The -2LD wouldn't that be useful against psykers?

I think the simple way to make these more useful is to A) squadron them, B)give them other weapon options. Before anyone says, "than why would you ever take standard speeders if they can have much the same weapons"... Storm is still BS3 and open topped.

@aka_mythos
I suggest you take a look at the cerebus launcher rules again.

It's not a flat -2LD, just going to paraphrase here but it essentially works like assault grenade launchers on a land raider/crusader only with out the grenades. When a scout unit charges out of the speeder if they win combat the enemy unit is at a -2LD in addition to the other modifiers.

The following rounds it does squat.

No it really isn't a very good piece of equipment.

Maybe if it was like...real grenades?
Count as assault 4 Grenade Launcher?

Something like the little brother to the Typhoon.
Have a Squardon so you can have a single Scout squad combat squad into two squads...

Hell, copy and paste the rules for the Tervigon and the Mawlock and mix them.
The Storm comes in from the sky (deepstrike) drops a crap load of grenades on target (the mawlock attack).
'Spawns' a unit of scouts () and jets out.

Hur Hur...though it would be cool....ish.

I think the simple way to make these more useful is to A) squadron them, B)give them other weapon options. Before anyone says, "than why would you ever take standard speeders if they can have much the same weapons"... Storm is still BS3 and open topped.

I think the weapon options are fine and don't really see the value in squads. What would be better is if they became dedicated transports for scouts thus freeing up the valuable FA slots.

Cerberus Launcher is a bit Meh but I don't think the unit really requires it, though it is most usefull against Ld10 opponents and spreads the wealth a bit for the Scouts making them slightly less situational. Against weaker units it is a little extra insurance policy encase the dice gods fail you.

It is a little boost but if it was a great bonus wouldn't full SMs want it? Maybe have it also deny CA bonuses? that would be a nice boost and at least shut those little units of 5 puppies in a razorback up!

Ok... well the Cerberus Launcher and Landspeeder storm are suppose to be a scout's vehicle, so the weapon should reflect that. Maybe just an assault 2 grenade launcher that can ignore cover saves, since the scouts would have the utility being used against units in cover. I agree the vehicle should be a dedicated transport, that just makes sense.

Thirded? for the dedicated transport option. Pretty ridiculous to occupy a whole FoC to a single Av10 Open topped skimmer.

Commander Endova wrote:
I guess my "proposal" is to say that they should have made the Storm an assault vehicle instead of giving it the Cerebus lancher, or made the Cerebus Launcher grant additional attacks, or said feth it and replaced the damned thing with an Astartes Grenade Launcher.

The value of the LS Storm is thus: it's a scout, it's a skimmer, it's open topped. What does that mean? If you have a reasonable expectation of going first, you can take 155 points of stuff within 12 inches of his big ass land-raider (scout move), have it then move it's regular move (first turn), dump your guys out, have the Storm fire it's MM at the raider, have the sgt fire his combi-melta at the raider, and if that doesn't kill it, have the squad assault (since the Storm is open topped) and have the sgt's melta bombs blow up the raider (since the raider hasn't moved yet, the bombs autohit). If the storm is lucky enough to kill the raider, then have the sgt attack something else. You might get two vehicles for the price of 155 points.


While the Cerberus launcher is unneeded, it's nice to have. In a combined multi assault, it's value is magnified. Do you need it, no. Is it nice to have? Yes.

My problem is that that is a big 'might'.
At the very best it's a one trick pony. Any time you have a unit that has a particular role that requires a set of specific events you are just asking for something to fudge it up.

In a multi-assault... the modifier will most likely be high already.... why would you need a modifier of an additional 3 at that point? Just in case the gang bang goes the other way around?.../shrug.

If you are unwilling to risk, than be prepared to never gain.

I don't mind risking if the gain is acceptable.
The gain here would be huge one game, and never again afterwards.

It's simply a deployment problem should the Storm/Scouts profit off of a raider first turn.

In addition it's still 2 kill points you are throwing around. At least for me, the risk outweight the gain.

I'd rather risk instant death weapons and go to town with tri-Multi-Melta Attack Bike squadron.