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does the choppa rule still apply in the 5th edition ork codex ,

the codex states ( orks use a bewildering variety of bladed, spiked, serrated, jagged, barbed, and notched hand wepons ranging from proverbial blunt instraments to whiring ork-toothed chainsaws. Choppas count as normal CC wepons. see the assult phase chapter of the warhammer 40k ruelbook for details on using CC wepons )

which states (Heavy CC wepons, such as the Ork Choppa, are used to batter through an opponent's defences. No armour can completly protect its wearer against a direct blow from one of these wepons. Their maximum Armour Save against these wepons is a 4+ even if it would normally be better)

So my friend says that this rule was dropped for the orks with 5th edition but it tells you in the codex that it tells you to look up cc wepons, is it refering to basic CC wepons or the heavy variant?

cr3470r wrote:... see the assult phase chapter of the warhammer 40k ruelbook for details on using CC wepons )

which states (Heavy CC wepons, such as the Ork Choppa, are used to batter through an opponent's defences. No armour can completly protect its wearer against a direct blow from one of these wepons. Their maximum Armour Save against these wepons is a 4+ even if it would normally be better)

No, it doesn't. The current warhammer 40k rulebook has no such rule.
Choppas are "normal CC weapons" in every way under the current rules. Your friend is right.

well suck my grots, that means they are useless in cc now

choppa is normal CC, armor saving can take against that. even big choppa is normal CC. only power weapon can ignore armor saving.

cr3470r wrote:well suck my grots, that means they are useless in cc now

If by that you mean they 'are as useless as any other normal close combat weapon. I mean who needs an extra attack when using a choppa with a slugga, for example?'... then I suppose they would be, yes.

I hate to tell you your friend is right. Which codex are you referring to? The ork choppa rule went the way of the dodo. In the current rule set for orks there are only a few types of CC weapons. You have the Choppa (basic CC wpn), the Big Choppa (+2 STR, but otherwise normal CC wpn), and the Power Klaw (power fist). I hope that helps.

another Q, if you have a mob of boys I2 charging models with I4 using a successful waaaaagh role, are you able to hit first in CC ever?

and now that 5th eddition is out im optin 4 shootaz, forget sluggaz

cr3470r wrote:another Q, if you have a mob of boys I2 charging models with I4 using a successful waaaaagh role, are you able to hit first in CC ever?

and now that 5th eddition is out im optin 4 shootaz, forget sluggaz

Not unless you find a way to boost your initiative or lower theirs.
Always using 100% shootas is probably a foolish move, there are several situations where sluggas are the superior choice.

rednekgunner wrote:I hate to tell you your friend is right. Which codex are you referring to? The ork choppa rule went the way of the dodo. In the current rule set for orks there are only a few types of CC weapons. You have the Choppa (basic CC wpn), the Big Choppa (+2 STR, but otherwise normal CC wpn), and the Power Klaw (power fist). I hope that helps.

And burnas, grot prods, grabba sticks, sluggas, 'urty syringes, tankhammers... but who's counting?

but the choppa is what gave the ork army its possiblities to win, so i wharge a squad of 30 boyz ito cc with marine boyz, the only thing that made it even slightly fair for the boys was a slighly crappier armour save for the marines, and for this reason orks really should be cheaper say 5 pts per model?

cr3470r wrote:but the choppa is what gave the ork army its possiblities to win, so i wharge a squad of 30 boyz ito cc with marine boyz, the only thing that made it even slightly fair for the boys was a slighly crappier armour save for the marines, and for this reason orks really should be cheaper say 5 pts per model?

Orks have one of the best cost/return ratios in the entire game, and 30 boyz on the charge will eat a marine Tac squad handily.

Some napkin math to chew on, ignoring upgrade characters and special weapons (which give orks a larger advantage):

Ten marines take their I4 swings:
10 swings
5 hit
2.5 wound
2.08 unsaved

28 charging boyz (2 dead)
112 swings
56 hits
28 wounds
9.33 unsaved


If I wanted to complain about the fight being unfair, I wouldn't be the ork player.

The tac marine squad goes splat in the first round, and the boyz are barely scratched. Thats a 4.5:1 KD ratio for the orks, and the marines are ~3x as expensive per model (opponent lost 135 points to your 12).
The point values involved are fairly similar and it's not even a contest... charging orks destroy most standard units.

Erm, Orks are struggling to win? Really?

I guess you don't play tournaments. Ever. Or pay any attention to games being played by people with Orks?

A mob of 30 boys charging a tac squad will lose maybe 3 boys before they get to attack. Even with shoota boys you still get 80 attacks, 40 hit, 20 wound or *6* dead marines. And this is before powerfists / klaws strike.

Orks are much, much better. You do realise they are cheaper than their previous book?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Erm, Orks are struggling to win? Really? You do realise they are cheaper than their previous book?

The big units are also a weakness in a way... they're just about impossible to keep out of LOS while closing, and might have trouble just moving in any smart fashion. That said, my Orks are the only army I have played (or seen played) where basic troops gleefully charge at a Carnifex instead of moving back to keep shooting it. Weak they're not.

And let's not forget that they mainly have Assault type shooting weapons... 30 Boyz( even with their crappy BS) will kill a few marines before the charge just by the volume of fire going out.

Hence their power is also their weakness. More Boyz means more to get shot at, but also more to shoot with.

But 30 ork boyz dont really care - unless you send a punisher cannon their way the volume of fire needed to dent them is crazy. Theyre normally getting a cover save from something.

Oh, and while you shoot at one mob of 30 boyz the nob squad in BW (or hell, trukk!) is heading your way, along with 3 other trukks.

Orks won last years uk GT if memory serves, which is widely regarded as the toughest GT, so calling Orks "weak" because they lost Heavy CCW? Nah. Not buying it.

@OP: You are aware that there is a 5th ed ork codex? I ask since you say ork boyz should be cheaper, and at 6pts, that is simply redicolous (sp?)

Illumini wrote:@OP: You are aware that there is a 5th ed ork codex? I ask since you say ork boyz should be cheaper, and at 6pts, that is simply redicolous (sp?)

No, there isn't. The Current Ork Codex is 4th edition.

I'm aware that it came out during 4th, but it seems to have 5th in mind (except for Waagh rule). It is also the first of the non-Jervisified codexes. IMO, orks have a 5th ed codex

My point was that they got a new codex in 08, and it seems like the OP is still using the one from 99 (and the 4th ed rulebook)


Edit: on second read-through, it seems the problem only lies with his rulebook, so I will change my question to: You know there is a 5th ed rulebook, right?

It's so simple, just get a copy of the newest ork codex and the fifth edition rule book and your questions will be answered to a point.

i do have both and the 99 book, but usually a squad of boyz will go against a tack squad which is upgraded with a heavy bolter, or in the case of my friends army, heavy bolters and noise marine sonic wepons and lord? what would i do in this case

You could just grab a KFF (or screening grots) and just outshoot them. Boyz with Shootas shoot better per point than tactical marines.

There are numerous other ways to deal with marines though. You should look in the 40k tactics part of this forum.

cr3470r wrote:i do have both and the 99 book, but usually a squad of boyz will go against a tack squad which is upgraded with a heavy bolter, or in the case of my friends army, heavy bolters and noise marine sonic wepons and lord? what would i do in this case

So some cheap grots to give you a 4+ cover save, and you have more bodies and put out more bullets than them. You can stay at 18" and you will got *more* shots than the marines. Or pop 12 sluggas in a trukk and run it up, with a KFF to protect it for a surprisingly long time.

As was said - 40k tactics is the best place, this is for answering rules questions.

The same thign happened to Khorne berzerker chain axes. They used to be "Heavy CC" weapons as well. It woudl have been nice to assault a group of termies and automatically lower their armour save to a 4+. lol.

It *was* nice, very nice - if three with a power weapon got to a squad of 5 terminators they were dead....

cr3470r wrote:i do have both and the 99 book, but usually a squad of boyz will go against a tack squad which is upgraded with a heavy bolter, or in the case of my friends army, heavy bolters and noise marine sonic wepons and lord? what would i do in this case

Nobz. Painboy. Powerklaws. Wound allocation. Read complex units in the rule book. That will wipe the floor with the unit you listed.

Swapping Heavy Close Combat Weapons for Furious Charge is a much better trade anyways.

I am cr3470r's friend and i will be using chaos noise marines not weak tac marines, and I told you choppa was gone haha, why would zerkers lose out and not orks.