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A little strangeness in the Warhammer Armies: Skaven rules got me thinking:

For Skaven Slaves, it states that when the unit breaks (which it does every combat), it deals (to all units within D6 inches) D3 + (number or ranks) S3 wounds. The interesting thing that I noticed about this is that it clearly does not state "Rank Bonuses" (which would be limited by minimum frontage), but instead simply says "Ranks".

The question I throw to the community is this: Can I make a 20-deep unit that just blows things up in hilarious ways (19 + D3 wounds)?

Please note: Replies just stating that this is a lame way to play is not really an answer, just wondering about it. It's something that you can keep in your back pocket against people that regularly try to pull one over on others by ultra-strictly following RAW (such as tomb kings with free reforms moving their necromancer across the board to cast a spell).

Thanks!

Yes you can.

Yes it is lame

No, this is not a new thread.

Well thanks, didn't find anything with the Search function, but maybe I wasn't specific enough with it.

Hmmm, I THOUGHT that, to be considered a rank for any reason, in had to contain at least 5 models. I could be very wrong on this and I'm not pretending to have a definitive answer. The problem i see with this tactic is the fact that you are taking away their bonus to leadership (which indeed does go off of the rank bonus) and so making them run from shooting or magic will be too easy, especially if you have a dwarven bolt thrower a good cannon shot or a nice spell. but then again, if you are firing on a unit of slaves and wasting power dice on destroying said unit, you are missing some more tempting targets.

Yes, by the RAW, you can have a 20-long unit and get a big 'splodey when they get stomped.

Expect your opponet to pack up his minis and go looking for a real opponet when he sees you set that conga line up during deployment. I know I would... and I play Skaven.

Vulcan:

1) Did you even read my post?

2) Do you ever post anything other than that same message in any thread?

Those who live by the RAW die by the RAW.

give em hell.

I think Vulcan's point is that only a WAAC player would actually do this.

It is kinda the same as the old zombie conga lines, which sadly where specifically ruled out this edition.

Yes it is a douche thing to do as a means of intentional WAAC playing. Yes it is an awesome thing to do in retaliation to a douche player.

A rank is simply the number of rows of models, there is no requirement for it to be any number wide. THat is why a rank BONUS requires 5 wide, and that is only the stipulation to get the bonus.

So in other words - sucky tactic, kinda like the goblin fanatic slingshot. Yes, it is a "tactic", however it is one that is likely to lose you opponents very quickly. Even in a tournament I would probably rather concede than play against it - it is just so ineffably *wrong* that even playing the person wouldnt be enjoyable. And i play skaven.

Agree with Nosferatu - hopefully before the tournament season kicks off in full swing, the FAQ for Skaven are released. Unfortuneately there is ALOT of room for interpretation in the new codex which could cause alot of problems at tournaments unless the folks running it have some in-tournament rulings. Heck think about if they allowed the warpstone tokens to be multiple use.

I've already made sure my TO knows of all the problems

Fearspect wrote:Vulcan:

1) Did you even read my post?

Yes. Why else would I respond at all? Or are we talking about the post where you pointed out your apparent seach failure (which I read as well)?

2) Do you ever post anything other than that same message in any thread?

I have lots more positive things to say in other threads. But by and large, I don't play WFB to watch other people to cheese the rules. So I don't stick around for it.

That seems like it would be incredibly difficult to move around, as even a 1" wheel swings the ass of the unit WAY wide. How do you move with such a unit?

Why couldn't this stay in its freshly dug grave?

And the object is to throw it in a straight line at things that can't get out of the way, or to block off an entire portion of the board if you want to avoid charging the line.

Spellbound wrote:That seems like it would be incredibly difficult to move around, as even a 1" wheel swings the ass of the unit WAY wide. How do you move with such a unit?

I think that you could do it by moving it like normal (5 ranks for example) and when you're about to get charged, reform and let the enemy charge.

I'd rather do 20 wide, 1 deep, and try and hit 4 units with d3+1 wounds... over and over again. (average 2.5 each time..., so 2x20>1x40)

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Waves of skaven slaves!!!!

Fearspect wrote:
For Skaven Slaves, it states that when the unit breaks (which it does every combat), it deals (to all units within D6 inches) D3 + (number or ranks) S3 wounds. The interesting thing that I noticed about this is that it clearly does not state "Rank Bonuses" (which would be limited by minimum frontage), but instead simply says "Ranks".

The question I throw to the community is this: Can I make a 20-deep unit that just blows things up in hilarious ways (19 + D3 wounds)?

Part of this was already answered.
1. You can deploy in a straight line.
2. Definition of "rank" by rules book is model's 5 wide, but this references rank bonus as well.
3. I think if you go on a straight congo line "I" then you looking at just d3 str 3 hits. This is similar to if you go "_" for 20 models wide.

Result: I think your stuck, in a RAW argument you've got argument for and against, so in resolving a rules debate you should really look to the least beardy/ cheesy/ and likely scenario. So your looking to do d3 str 3 units from a straight line. That's how i'd resolve it.

That being said: you can have quite the effective explosion and desrupt the opponents battle plans with a skaven slaves wave army. I've got 4 units in my army, and used them over and over into a demon player... was a great way to get rid of horrors!

NJPC - they NEVER define a rank as being 5 wide, in fact they do the exact opposite - they define it as the number of models wide, with no lower or upper limit.

The only time the number of models is referenced is for rank BONUS.

So you are totally wrong, sorry.

Of course, in cases where there are less than 5 models in a rank, that rank means exactly bupkiss in game terms, except as part of the whole unit wound counter.

No, in GAME terms it is still a rank, same as a file of 1 is still a file.

Nosferatu has this one right. Ranks in game are simply determined by a line of models from left to right. The rules do NOT stipulate a minimum size to qualify as a RANK, only a minimum size to qualify for the close combat bonus.

To quote page 6 of the BRB and diagram 6.1 " Models in a unit of infantry or cavalry are arranged in a formation that consists of one, two three or more horizontal lines, called ranks"

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, in GAME terms it is still a rank, same as a file of 1 is still a file.

I re-read it, thanks for the correction. Would you allow the congo line explosion? What's your interpretation on how it should be handled?

As written, it's valid. I've never seen anyone actually do it, since most seem to agree that it should have been rank bonus (or at least ranks of 5). But strictly speaking, it's allowable.

RZ

njpc wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, in GAME terms it is still a rank, same as a file of 1 is still a file.

I re-read it, thanks for the correction. Would you allow the congo line explosion? What's your interpretation on how it should be handled?

Read further up. I have already stated what I think I would do.

I just honestly never expect anyone to ever play it this way. It's a good way to get people to walk away and never play you again.

I agree.

Using bonus-able ranks is a way of tying the number of hits to an actual quantity of rats. Congo-line just gets you something for nothing, which I can't see being intended.

Poor wording as it is. Rules writers need to learn that the players at large don't play in their little group and intuitively know how they work it. Game companies like Avalon Hill had been writing relatively ironclad rules for more complex games for years, (I said "relatively", not "perfect") so I don't see what GW's problem is. Maybe they never heard of "deveopment".

ZF-

They've never heard of proofreading. Case in point: the Lizardmen special rule that references 'page xx'.

I would expect one of 2 things from GW with regards to this.

Either they would errata the entry stating that it is equal to the number of ranks with at least 5 models in each, or a new rule for ranked infantry in 8th eddition stating that each rank must have at least 5 models in it.

Second expect a TO to make a house ruling similar to what is listed above. Yes RAW at the moment indicates that you can congo line but don't build that into your army strategy as you have no idea how this will pan out over the next couple of months.

The thing with the conga line is, there are arguments for it and against it. Whether you agree with the argument is irrelevant, it still exists. And the rulebook clearly says that when a rule is in dispute, you should dice off for it. So if you're depending on your 20-long line of slaves to do anything, you basically have a 50-50 chance of it following the rule you want it to versus not doing anything at all. Given that, do you you really think it's prudent to depend on that as a tactic?

Actually, there isnt a *rules based* argument against the conga line, there is only "i hate that!" arguments.

So no, no dice off. However any TO worth their salt would simply deny its use entirely.