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Well I took out all the magic..... mainly because a scroll caddy really doesn't do much, and the list should be able to get to the enemy by turn 2-3.

Doombull-353
-Brass Cleaver. Gnarled Hide, Heavy Armor, Shield, Ramhorn Helm, Chalice of Dark Rain

Gorebull #1-199
-Steel Claws, Light Armor

Gorebull #2-204
-Axes of Khorgor, Light Armor

Gorebull #3-215
-Additional Handweapon, Slug Skin, Many-Limbed Fiend

Tuskgor Chariot-80

Tuskgor Chariot-80

Tuskgor Chariot-80

Tuskgor Chariot-80

Tuskgor Chariot-80

5 Chaos Warhounds-30

5 Chaos Warhounds-30

5 Chaos Warhounds-30

5 Chaos Warhounds-30

3 Minotaurs-189
-Great Weapons

3 Minotaurs-189
-Great Weapons

3 Minotaurs-189
-Great Weapons

3 Minotaurs-189
-Great Weapons

Basic Math-Hammer Breakdown Averages against Elite Infantry (WS 4, T 4)
Doombull: 5 Wounds in Combat
Gorebull #1: 3.11 Wounds in Combat
Gorebull #2: 3.55 Wounds in Combat
Gorebull #3: 4.11 Wounds in Combat
Tuskgor Chariot: 1.625 Wounds in Combat + 2.33 Impact Wounds=3.955 Total (Hatred Included)
Warhound=.166 Wounds in Combat X5=.833
Minotaur= 1.66 Wounds in Combat X3= 5 Wounds (Frenzy from Doom/Gorebull Included)

I know what you're asking yourself.... why take the time to do the math?
Well, it proves that not taking magic defense isn't important.
How does it do this, you ask?
Combine any Gorebull or Doombull with a squad of minotaurs, does it beat a static combat res of 5? Yes. Now take away one minotaur. Does it still beat the static combat res? Yes. Now take away another minotaur. All but the unit with Gorebull #1 still beat a static combat res of 5.

Combine this with the fact that there are four units of screening warhounds, and the chalice of dark rain, and I think the minotaurs will come through the 2-3 turns it takes to get into combat just fine.

Doing the math also shows the inherent weaknesses of the list, namely, tuskgor chariots. on an average roll, a combined charge of 2 beat a ranked unit of infantry on the charge, by 2.91 points, however, should the enemy stick around, the combat effectiveness drops dramatically.


.

I love Math hammer + lists like this.
Are mino base str 4 or 5?

Base 5. I wouldn't be worried about shooting magic with this, just movement magic. The important phases will be right before you hit home, and whether someone can get around the edge and into your flanks.

With characters placed on the ends properly and screens protecting you could well minimize this, though.

So you going to run one of these and let us know how it goes?

RZ

I was trying to figure out how in the world you made this all fit!? And then I realied that the Ghorgon is not there anymore

Pretty nasty blocks of minotaurs for sure... however, if you did want to include a Ghorgon, you could drop two of your chariots and change one Gorebull over to a regular Minotaur. That would give you enough for the Ghorgon with about 20-35 points left to play with (depending on which Gorebull you dropped).

Here was my problem with the ghorhon.... the math just didn't add up to it being worth anything near the ammount of points it is.

With 7 attacks, (6+1 for frenzy), the ghorgon comes in at doing 2.9166 wounds against WS 4 T 4 models.

275 points of warhounds end up doing 7.635 wounds..... 275 points of minotaurs rack up 7.24 wounds
heck, even 275 points of non-charging chariots does 5.585 wounds

From a mathmatical point of view the ghorgon is one of the biggest waste of points in the game. I had kept it in the lists anyway from a fluff perspective until I realised JUST how bad it is.

Why are people so hung up on the dogs as a screening unit. WoC it makes sense they don't have anything cheaper or more usefull. As beastmen Players we got Ungor Raiders same cost better screening unit and more useful. i would drop dogs and a chariot or 2 take 4 units of 10 raiders. Since the skirmishers the can make a wider screen, and they are harder to hit with the -1 to hit from incoming fire so -2 (skirmish and long range) for first round or two and the chalice and you can walk there practically untouched and with a unit or 2 in ambush go straight to the problem jump the warmachine crews or archers from behind. They can shoot the turn they com in. and even if they miss the become a shooting target that has to be delt with. topped off with mage hunting after the combat starts. Sure the are mediocre shooters but for every shot they land you may of stripped a rank bonus off a block leveling the combat rez increasing Minotaurs chance of winning the combat. They can also block line of site to bait units once the big boys get frenzied. I also like the idea of yippy little beastmen trying to decide is it better to be a screen or lunch and running forward.

I'm not at all convinced by Angron's math on damage vs. unit's Static Res. You are talking about average infantry units like that's all you'll have to deal with. You have to factor in enemy characters to get a good idea of what you are going to be dealing with. In addition, frenzied m6 with bad redirectors isn't likely to get the charge, so you should probably assume that they will be charging you, possibly in a flank.

Also, Tru, the reason folks use dogs instead of Ungor skirmishers is twofold.

First, movement rate. M7 is faster than your minos, m5 slower. Keeping in front with the minos slows down your army.

Second, much more importantly, you don't want your screen/redirectors to be skirmishers. The enemy can hit at any angle they want unless you flee, and if you flee you run the chance that they catch you, which renders more unpredictable their final location.

I still say additional hand weapons on at least on unit. Despite the average I3 of the Minos, those prolonged combats are what will be the downfall of the list (especially since you can no longer count on impact hits to get more wounds on the enemy). The longer you sit there the more chances the enemy is going to have to get around the side or back and crunch your small unit. The additional hand weapons will not only help towards the initial charge and your chances of breaking, but will help in subsequent turns of combat. If you are using the wounds you put down to break even with the SCR you still have a problem, no musician.
If you tie because you broke even you are SOL (plus, no extra attack next round), they have the musician. Granted the Ld of the character will help, even so, it is only average with Minos. So you get a re-roll from the BSB but how certain are you that it will be in your best interest to keep all four units crunched up to get that bonus? Since you really can't bank on outnumbering with fear, you have to consider just simply eating more people to drop their Ld down if/when they break.
With S5 base, you are going to be pretty set against most block infantry that you cross. Knocking off two points of Sv is going to really hurt every standard core unit (except maybe Chaos Warriors but still). Now you do have the chariots to help the unit but what happens when they aren't there?
The best case scenario won't always happen. A competent opponent won't let you hit them head on like that, unless they have spears, which is a whole different concern.

I guess after all that rambling I should stop now... My point is that the additional hand weapons mean more attacks which means more wounds which means more wins which means more attacks and so on... eventually leading to a break on the enemies part sooner, rather than later.

40kenthusiast wrote:I'm not at all convinced by Angron's math on damage vs. unit's Static Res. You are talking about average infantry units like that's all you'll have to deal with. You have to factor in enemy characters to get a good idea of what you are going to be dealing with. In addition, frenzied m6 with bad redirectors isn't likely to get the charge, so you should probably assume that they will be charging you, possibly in a flank.

Also, Tru, the reason folks use dogs instead of Ungor skirmishers is twofold.

First, movement rate. M7 is faster than your minos, m5 slower. Keeping in front with the minos slows down your army.

Second, much more importantly, you don't want your screen/redirectors to be skirmishers. The enemy can hit at any angle they want unless you flee, and if you flee you run the chance that they catch you, which renders more unpredictable their final location.

Since the math states it's against blocked infantry, and since WS 4/T 4 infantry is essentially the best blocked infantry in the game (sure there may be ws 5, but even against ws 5 all math but the gorebulls stays the same), and finally since M6 is muchh better than M4, which is the movement of most bloacked infantry, the minotaurs should be getting the charge off against blocked infantry.

Also, the math is against blocked infantry because if you can beat a static rez of 5, at str 7, you can kill any knight, monster, anything that gets thrown your way.

Here's the reason why I didn't factor in enemy characters. Most enemy characters in a blocked infantry unit will be going last unless on the rare occasion that they strike first. Secondly, the average hero level character has three attacks, a lord level character 4-5. ( there are exceptions to this, I'm talking averages). Meaning that while the minotaurs are killing the static rez by themselves, there's no way for the hero to impact the combat, as my heroes/lords are doing more wounds than they have attacks.

So in short, can enemy character have impact? Yes. On average, should they impact it? No. Finally, Am I going to take the time to Math-Hammer every single character option out there? Heck no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

plusARGON wrote: I still say additional hand weapons on at least on unit. Despite the average I3 of the Minos, those prolonged combats are what will be the downfall of the list (especially since you can no longer count on impact hits to get more wounds on the enemy). The longer you sit there the more chances the enemy is going to have to get around the side or back and crunch your small unit. The additional hand weapons will not only help towards the initial charge and your chances of breaking, but will help in subsequent turns of combat. If you are using the wounds you put down to break even with the SCR you still have a problem, no musician.
If you tie because you broke even you are SOL (plus, no extra attack next round), they have the musician. Granted the Ld of the character will help, even so, it is only average with Minos. So you get a re-roll from the BSB but how certain are you that it will be in your best interest to keep all four units crunched up to get that bonus? Since you really can't bank on outnumbering with fear, you have to consider just simply eating more people to drop their Ld down if/when they break.
With S5 base, you are going to be pretty set against most block infantry that you cross. Knocking off two points of Sv is going to really hurt every standard core unit (except maybe Chaos Warriors but still). Now you do have the chariots to help the unit but what happens when they aren't there?
The best case scenario won't always happen. A competent opponent won't let you hit them head on like that, unless they have spears, which is a whole different concern.

I guess after all that rambling I should stop now... My point is that the additional hand weapons mean more attacks which means more wounds which means more wins which means more attacks and so on... eventually leading to a break on the enemies part sooner, rather than later.

The score of 5 is for the minotaurs by themselves, so by themselves, 3 minotaurs tie SCR and kill off the front rank. Now throw in an additional 3.11-5 wounds from the characters.

And all minotaur math was done without impact hits. Mainly because I forgot about them, thanks for pointing them out. The minotaurs with impact hits would do 1 extra wound for the unit, and .66 wounds for the gorebull and .833 wounds for the doombull.

And actually with Two Handweapons, minotaurs would have 5 attacks a piece that hit on fours, so 2.5 hits and wound t4 on 3's, so 1.66 wounds. They come out the exact same. Now, we'll go into later rounds, a minotaur in the second round of combat. Str 7 with 5 attacks, vs. Str 5 with 6 attacks. 5 attacks hit 2.5 times, and wound on 2's so 2.083 wounds. 6 attacks hit 3 times and wound on 3;s, cause 2 wounds. So the minotaurs with great weapons actually get better than the minotaurs without great weapons, provided the enemy doesn't cause 3 wounds with 5 models. that generally get 1-2 attacks a piece. Can it happen? Yup, if the enemy has 2 attacks a piece and is str 4, and strike before the doombull/ gorebull.

Interesting... from what I'd seen, people were slavering over the ghorgon (and only somewhat interested in the jabberslythe, and less so the cygor, despite their unique and cool abilities). I'll have to try out some dice rolls and see if this is true... of course it doesn't change the fact that I'll be taking one for sheer awesomeness

Point(s) taken. I guess the fact that GW strike-last still concerns me in some situations. I also am thinking from playing Lizardmen, where charging a unit of Saurus spears is a bad idea.

I concur on the negative assessment of the Ghorgon. Took a combat to the front of a normal Dwarf block. Needs 4s to hit, 2s wound and 6s save meant I lost three-ish a turn.

Of course it just sat there on stubborn 10, but wasn't nearly as scary as the blocks of minotaurs.

Only surprise was the M7. But with Frenzy and Bloodgreed, it's got issues.

RZ