Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all! hopefulyl a quick and easy question...

Lets say i have, say, a group of CSM with flamers, and i have a lash sorc who has joined the squad, and a big mob of ork boyz in front of me. Now i want to (obviously) lash the orks into a big teardrop shape in front of my flamers and give them a good roasting. My question is, what happens first? the flaming, or the lashing? Shooting is done by the whole unit at the same time, so afaik you first do the flamethrowing/bolt pistoling/shooting that wounds and kills, THEN you do the lash. Or is it the other way around? or do i lash them and move them halfway, flame, then move them the rest of the distance ? Any good answers to this?

Look at what lash is defined as - a Psychic Shooting Attack (you can tell becuase it is "instead of firing ANOTHER ranged weapon....)

It is therefore shooting, and simultaneous with all other shooting.

So do i move the units before i place a template, or do i use the template to find out how many hits i get with that THEN move the units?

To clarify you can only do this trick with Pavane of Slanesh>Breath of Chaos (spelling?) afaik because it states that one is resolved before the other.

ChrisCP wrote:To clarify you can only do this trick with Pavane of Slanesh>Breath of Chaos (spelling?) afaik because it states that one is resolved before the other.

ok so if my sorc is joined with a squad oblits and he lashes at the same time as the oblits fire their plasma cannons at marines, who are standing in a line- do i lash first and place the template on a clump of marines, or do i scatter the blasts then lash them into a clump?

If my sorc is attached to a CSM squad with 2 flamers, do i place my flamer templates BEFORE i move the enemy with lash, or do i place my flamer templates AFTER i move the enemy with lash?

Jihallah wrote:So do i move the units before i place a template, or do i use the template to find out how many hits i get with that THEN move the units?

I'd say you detach the prince in the movement phase and then you can do whatever you like. More to the point, though, since everything happens simultaneously, I'd say you probably lay down the templates and see if you've hit any, resolve their damage and then move them. Generally, when there is a muddy rules question, it favors the defender, anyway.

Edit, to be more clear:

Since everything happens simulataneously (especially with your plasma example above), your plasma cannons would be targetting marines in Spot A. Well, they would still be in Spot A as they were getting lashed. So, if the plasma cannons didn't go off until after the lash, the blast markers would still be in Spot A, though the marines wouldn't be (it happens simultaneously). The marines would be in Spot B now and the blast markers would fall harmlessly away. Since everything happens simulataneously, I would say the shots go off first, then the unit gets moved, whether they're blast markers, ranged or templates.

puma713 wrote:

Jihallah wrote:So do i move the units before i place a template, or do i use the template to find out how many hits i get with that THEN move the units?

I'd say you detach the prince in the movement phase and then you can do whatever you like. More to the point, though, since everything happens simultaneously, I'd say you probably lay down the templates and see if you've hit any, resolve their damage and then move them. Generally, when there is a muddy rules question, it favors the defender, anyway.

Edit, to be more clear:

Since everything happens simulataneously (especially with your plasma example above), your plasma cannons would be targetting marines in Spot A. Well, they would still be in Spot A as they were getting lashed. So, if the plasma cannons didn't go off until after the lash, the blast markers would still be in Spot A, though the marines wouldn't be (it happens simultaneously). The marines would be in Spot B now and the blast markers would fall harmlessly away. Since everything happens simulataneously, I would say the shots go off first, then the unit gets moved, whether they're blast markers, ranged or templates.

Detaching isn't the question- its about when the lasher IS attached that's important!

That's what i thought- that you aim at point A as the lash comes at them, so you don't move them and you shoot first- just wanted some confirmation as far as this goes. Thanks for the first decent answer guv

Clearly, the only fair way to resolve this is to move the models halfway, place the templates and then continue to move them :p

You shoot "first", and resolve all effects at the same time.

The effect of shooting is to rll to hit, to wound etc. The effect of lash is to move them. So, as you lay the template(s) down you with your other pair of hands roll the dice and start moving the models.

Kidding - yuo determine the hits, wound models, remove models THEN move models - its the only way that makes sense.

Lash moves models in the "To Wound" portion of shooting, so you would work out the number of hits first, then move them with lash.

In Short, move your sorc out the squad first.

Gwar! wrote:Lash moves models in the "To Wound" portion of shooting, so you would work out the number of hits first, then move them with lash.

In Short, move your sorc out the squad first.

That's certainly how I would generally choose to play it, it seems the most reasonable, but I'm not sure the RAW is exactly that.

Thankfully I don't see lash often, but my reading of it's rules are that you don't have to roll to hit despite it being a shooting attack because it says "If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player." and, normally with a shooting attack, you roll the psychic test before any rolling to hit, so you have reached the point where the Lash rules are telling you "target unit is moved" BEFORE any other model in the squad has even rolled to hit.

While it's defined as a psychic shooting attack (arguably) I think the "shooting is simultaneous" wouldn't really come in here because you aren't using a ranged weapon profile but rather explicitly following a set of rules telling you what to do upon passing the test. I personally think the RAW supports being able to move the target unit before the rest of the shooting is resolved.

It is UNarguably a shooting attack - it specifies you do it instead of firing ANOTHER ranged weapon.

As such you have to resolve the movement at the same time you determine how many hits there are - as the psychic test is prior to "roll to hit" meaning you pass test, THEN determine (how far to move and how many hit) at the same time.

I've heard talk previously of this 'phases' business that Gwar mentioned... is this outlined in the book somewhere? I don't remember it if it is.

It certainly makes sense to break things down into phases for clarity, in more detail than move/shoot/assault I mean, but where are the guidelines on it?

There are different steps in the shooting process. I'd look there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:There are different steps in the shooting process. I'd look there.

Sure, I see this, but where do you slot psychic attacks in? Bearing in mind this one in particular (LoS) doesn't roll to hit or wound.

Break it down into "where do i cause an effect on a unit"?

roll to hit? no
roll to wound? yes

At the point you roll to wound you are now affecting the unit - you are making them do something. With Lash, you affect the unit by moving them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Break it down into "where do i cause an effect on a unit"?

roll to hit? no
roll to wound? yes

At the point you roll to wound you are now affecting the unit - you are making them do something. With Lash, you affect the unit by moving them.

Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?

Tantras wrote:

Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW?

Most representative quote of 40k ever!

LAWL...donna sig that!

Hahah, I'm famous!

Ha, me too. First time I've been sigged

Lash movement simultaneous with rolls to wound is how I most commonly see it done.

"Is it RAW?"

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

what's a fzorgle?

warboss wrote:what's a fzorgle?

Lash of Submission!

If you mouse over your own question, you'll find that you've answered yourself.

true, but that only works after you post. it doesn't have the mouseover definition when the word is only in the subject (which it was until my post).

warboss wrote:true, but that only works after you post. it doesn't have the mouseover definition when the word is only in the subject (which it was until my post).

That's what Preview Post is for

Mannahnin wrote:What is the sound of one hand clapping?

You see, things CAN be defined... If you find the right method!

warboss wrote:true, but that only works after you post. it doesn't have the mouseover definition when the word is only in the subject (which it was until my post).

You can also read every post in this thread where it's referred to as Lashing.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:true, but that only works after you post. it doesn't have the mouseover definition when the word is only in the subject (which it was until my post).

That's what Preview Post is for

pffft... preview post is for weakling who PAI (post as intended). i PAW, typos and all!