Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

with the new rule for shieldwall the hive tyrant can be picked out as a target for shooting! ! page 49 of the rule book (shooting at IC), the new shieldwall offers the hive tyrant no protection. is this right if so whats the point of tyrant guard??

He can now be part of a unit that can take cover saves in area terrain, which means, now he can get 4+ cover.

bootts wrote:with the new rule for shieldwall the hive tyrant can be picked out as a target for shooting! ! page 49 of the rule book (shooting at IC), the new shieldwall offers the hive tyrant no protection. is this right if so whats the point of tyrant guard??

The Hive Tyrant isn't an IC, so that rule doesn't apply.

ok i see under shieldwall where (if it were an IC). yes i see it now, someone pointed out p49 (shooting at IC). i see now that shieldwall is not making him a IC so that rule has nothing 2 do with it. thx gwar.

I continue to feel that the Tyrant by RAW can be picked out from the remainder of his unit under the current shield wall rules.

He is said to join the unit using the IC rules, and as we all know, an IC joined to another unit can no longer be singled out for shooting once he joins that unit, but why is that?

It's because the rules on Page 49 of the core rulebook say "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets."

Which is much the same as the phrase, also on that page, which says "Independent characters that are monstrous creatures can always be picked out as separate targets".

If you are arguing that you can ignore the second rule because "the Hive Tyrant isn't technically an IC" then you should also ignore the first rule, which is the one that tells you that when joined you can't single out an IC. The Hive Tyrant either follows both rules and can be singled out, or follows neither rule and can be singled out.

But at the same time one can't pick individual elements out of a squad to shoot at, painboy/idivdualized nob, gretchin/runtherds.

You are worse than the people who claim the Doom doesn't get an invulnerable save.

Broken Loose wrote:You are worse than the people who claim the Doom doesn't get an invulnerable save.

Are you sure that is possible?

ChrisCP wrote:But at the same time one can't pick individual elements out of a squad to shoot at, painboy/idivdualized nob, gretchin/runtherds.

But the Hive Tyrant still is his own unit, he has no special rules stating otherwhise, while he can use the IC rules to join another unit, he remains his own entirely separate one, which is primarily noteworthy with regards to kill points.

I am simply choosing to fire at the Hive Tyrant unit instead of the Tyrant Guard unit, because the Hive Tyrant has no special rules which indicate I cannot fire at him after he joins a Tyrant Guard unit.

Where exactly does it state that monstrous creatures can be picked out of units anyways?

Edit: NM I found it

Drunkspleen - no, by jhoining the unit as an IC he has followed the parts of the rules which mean he is part of the unit in all respects.

At no point does he *ever* become an IC, meaning he is NEVER an IC that can be picked out, either in CC or in shooting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Drunkspleen - no, by jhoining the unit as an IC he has followed the parts of the rules which mean he is part of the unit in all respects.

At no point does he *ever* become an IC, meaning he is NEVER an IC that can be picked out, either in CC or in shooting.

exactly, he's not an IC, so he's not offered the normal IC rules that say that when you join a unit you can no longer be picked out as a separate unit, and despite joining the Hive Guard unit, there is still a Tyrant Guard unit in existance, and there's no reason you can't target it.

No, there isnt.

You are told he joins the unit as an IC. Look up what "join" means, and what it means for an IC to join a unit. ALL of this is what happens the instant the HT jo9ins the unit. That is what "joins AS an IC" means - every benefit of an IC joining is gained by the HT. You seeem to be artificially restricting this to being allowed to join the unit in the first place, and that restriction is not supported by either the text of the IC rules (i.e., what happens when an IC joins a unit) or by the rules for the TG.

As soon as he has joined the unit, he is a part of the unit and cannot be picked out at any point. there is no longer a TG unit - there is a HT+TG unit, as that is what "join" means for an IC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there isnt.

You are told he joins the unit as an IC. Look up what "join" means, and what it means for an IC to join a unit. ALL of this is what happens the instant the HT jo9ins the unit. That is what "joins AS an IC" means - every benefit of an IC joining is gained by the HT. You seeem to be artificially restricting this to being allowed to join the unit in the first place, and that restriction is not supported by either the text of the IC rules (i.e., what happens when an IC joins a unit) or by the rules for the TG.

As soon as he has joined the unit, he is a part of the unit and cannot be picked out at any point. there is no longer a TG unit - there is a HT+TG unit, as that is what "join" means for an IC.

So you would then try and claim that once the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard the Tyranid Army becomes worth 1 less Kill Point?

Because that's the only way you could possibly justify your argument, and even then the rules don't support it.

Like I have said, the reason ICs can't be singled out when joined to a unit is the same reason MCs who are ICs can still be singled out, because there are special rules on Page 49 that say as much.

Despite joining the Hive Guard using the rules that describe how an IC joins a unit, if you insist that they are not an IC and so do not follow any other IC rules, then they do not follow the rule that prevents them from being singled out, and they ARE still a seperate unit (albeit an attached one) because there is no rule which says they cease to be their own unit, if there was there would arguably be no way for any IC to ever leave a unit they have joined.

Yes, because there is one single unit.

In the same way as you can blob IG together to have less kill points.

Or CS to have more kill points.

Those special rules are not needed, as the rules for an IC joining state they are part of the unit. There are then rules stating they cant be singled out - but they arent actually needed as the rules for joining mean they already couldnt be singled out, same way as you cant single out any other member of the unit.

Yeah, it needs an errata if they actually want him to get any gains from having that unit with him.

No, it doesnt need an errata; it works perfectly well as I have explained.

He doesnt WANT to be an IC, as if he were an IC then the unit offers no protection - either in combat or shooting.

He never loses his MC status, he can be picked out.

That only applies to ICs who are also MCs.

I have a response to you. My self imposed difficulty: Unnecessary verbosity.

Drunkspleen my good sir, I must implore you reconsider your train of thought. Verily so, one may see your most astute, albeit rigid, objection toward the Tyrant's ability to hide within its Guard, however, I feel that down that way lies the sheerest of madness. Indeed you will, if you would humour one such as me so much as to consider such a thing, find that under your proposal of the interpretation of such rules in such fashion, it would not look completely inseparable from that good-natured, yet still complete poppycock, thread about RAW brokenness. The very one where you find such tom-foolery as the insistence that flamers are in fact incapable of firing and other such sillynannying. While not present in that fine thread the very last time I perused it, there exist certain implications stating that the very game itself in quite impossible to begin playing in the first place. While it is certainly far above my station and quite overstepping my bounds, I must propose, my fine and fellow gentleman, that perhaps it might be that when there is a listed ability, attribute, or other footnote, such that proposes an affect, or perhaps in some situations an effect, that can cause a circumstance of dubious consequence, of which there is a useful one and another that would be universally found my most, if not all, to be quite useless, that perhaps the one which is useless should be disregarded in favour of the one that is not quite so senseless. After all, if something is pointless, why include it?

tldr - RAW can be justified as unusable, because it offers no effect. In a situation such as this, opt for the (equally plausible) interpretation that makes sense because it works. Also, beyond exclusively quoting the book verbatim, any discussion of RAW is RAI by default.

Edit: brevity (I removed it)

Fie on you, daedalus.

Gasp! Rapscallion!


(With respects to Gwar! this is perhaps the funniest thing I've seen in a long time)

Fearspect wrote:He never loses his MC status, he can be picked out.

Reread the rules, he is NEVER an IC so that rule is irrelevant.

Reread page 47, very first bulleted paragraph. Combine that with the Tyrant Guard entry (p. 35 Codex: Tyranids).

Fearspect wrote:Reread page 47, very first bulleted paragraph.

You mean the rule that applies ONLY to Independent Characters?

Fearspect wrote:Reread page 47, very first bulleted paragraph. Combine that with the Tyrant Guard entry (p. 35 Codex: Tyranids).

Now please show me the rule that states the HT is an IC.

You've been told about 8 times he isnt by the way, you should probably listen...

Drunkspleen wrote: So you would then try and claim that once the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard the Tyranid Army becomes worth 1 less Kill Point?

Because that's the only way you could possibly justify your argument, and even then the rules don't support it.

While an interesting point, it is actually not relevant to the discussion.

According to RAW, when *any* model joins a unit (IC or not) the number of units in the army decreases, and thus the number of KP's decreases.

Now, no one ever plays this way, so I see no reason to treat the HT any differently than the Prime when dealing with KP.



The reason an IC can't be picked out in a unit, is not because of p.49. p.49 is just being redundant. The IC can't be picked out because it is now part of that unit, and you can't pick out a single model out of a unit. It does not matter whether that single model is a tac marine, or a sgt, or an IC, or a HT.

Gwar! wrote:

Fearspect wrote:Reread page 47, very first bulleted paragraph.

You mean the rule that applies ONLY to Independent Characters?

I think he's arguing that it doesn't apply, because the Characters section only applies to ICs as according to the first bulleted point on page 47.

Which is irrelevant either way, as has already been explained 6 or 7 different times.

The HT who has joined the unit cannot be picked out for shooting *unless* he is an IC.

You just restated what we all have been saying.

I think this thread has thoroughly run its course.