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My FLGS hosted a pre 'Ard Boys mini tourney to work the bugs out for the real deal. A mech IG player had 3 vendettas, each with TL lascannon under the wings. The chin weapons, though, didn't match. One had a Multi-laser/searchlight, the others had one lascannon/searchlight. Would it be a dick move to call him out on this, as WYSIWYG is the one big requirement of 'Ard Boys?

Cletusthebold wrote:My FLGS hosted a pre 'Ard Boys mini tourney to work the bugs out for the real deal. A mech IG player had 3 vendettas, each with TL lascannon under the wings. The chin weapons, though, didn't match. One had a Multi-laser/searchlight, the others had one lascannon/searchlight. Would it be a dick move to call him out on this, as WYSIWYG is the one big requirement of 'Ard Boys?

'Ard boyz is all about dick moves!

I'm confused - was the player using it as a multilaser, or was it just modelled as such?

If it was just modelled as such, then I wouldnt have an issue - a Vendetta has 1TL lascannon on the nose no mattrer what configuration you have, if memory serves, so it wont be confusing.

If they were playing it as a multilaser, then if memory serves that is cheating, as the nose weapon cant be a multilaser on a Vendetta - on a Valkyrie sure, but then you cant have the TL Lascannons on each wing.

It was just modeled as such, he was using it as TL lascannons. It was modeled with TL lascannon under the wings, the multi laser on the chin, and that was it.

Then I dont see any particular issue with it - multilas are similar to lascannon anyway, and the model is clearly a vendetta as there is no other configuration it can be with the 2TL las under the wings.

the issue is its not wysiwyg , i just avoided that by ordering 3 vendetta kits form forgeworld.

With the conversion rate so friendly to the dollar atm ive been ordering quite a bit lately, medusa kit im getting warrior wing set for nids biker boss next week mmm, forgeworlds never been so cheap lol

I'd be a bit displeased. It could indeed be confusing to folks not familiar with the IG codex.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m90029a_40KArdBoyzRules.pdf

Per the rules:

“Any armor, weapons and upgrades must be modeled on the miniatures (WYSIWYG).”

Now, exactly how this is enforced would appear to be at the discretion of the organizer. I’d encourage you to ask them, and maybe they can relay the question on to Trade Sales if they don’t have the answer. I don’t know if they’d want to go so far as to forbid the model from the table, but as ‘Ard Boyz is supposed encourage model sales, perhaps they would. I probably would, if it were me.

Mannahnin wrote: I don’t know if they’d want to go so far as to forbid the model from the table, but as ‘Ard Boyz is supposed encourage model sales, perhaps they would.

I'm not sure how that would work, as there is no properly outfitted GW vendetta model available and the person in question already owns and modified the valkyrie model somewhat. Unless they're after FW sales, which is just lame.

All the guy has to say is that it is a Rare Mars Delta Alpha Seven Pattern Variant of a Lascannon. You can't prove him wrong.

Exactly - WYSIWYG when there is no GW model of it to begin with kinda falls apart.

Yes, you coudl order the FW kit (and man, those lascannons look awesome!) however that doesnt alter that there is no general kit for it. In that case I wouldnt have an issue, as long as it looked good.

It does encourage model sales - theyve presumably grabbed LR lascannon kits for the 12 lascannons they do have!

So one more lascannon conversion won't exactly be difficult, then.

And while I have no problem with “counts as” when it’s clear, most IG armies do have both multilasers and lascannons, and having 1-3 instances of modeled multilasters counting as a lascannon, in an army where lots of other multilasers are actually multilasers, does break one of the cardinal rules of “counts as”.

I don’t mean to make life difficult for the IG player, but they should consider that the onus is on them to make sure their opponents are not confused. And not all opponents will necessarily be familiar with IG in general or Vendettas vs. Valkyries specifically.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if the player clearly explained the loadout before the game started.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you coudl order the FW kit (and man, those lascannons look awesome!) ...

The kit I got from Forgeworld was warped, lumpy and the detail was soft. I could do castings as good in my basement. It was surprisingly bad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then I dont see any particular issue with it - multilas are similar to lascannon anyway, and the model is clearly a vendetta as there is no other configuration it can be with the 2TL las under the wings.

I think this is the saliant point here. While you can argue he is being lazy, I think that the under-wing loadout defines this model (You can't have those Lascannons under the wings without also having front Lascannons).

That being said, a simple solution could be to have a single lascannon on each side of the cockpit instead of the double on the right (as forgeworld provides). Should be easy to stick a spare HW team cannon on there - this is not a modelling competition afterall.

All this being said, it is in the realm of possibility to have the entire model disqualified for representing an illegal weapons loadout. Lots of people have spare Lascannons lying around. If he just asks, then uses a little superglue, the issue disappears.

the only requirement that ard boyz has is that you use WYSIWIG models. you don't have to paint, decorate the base, make fancy displays or decorative army lists, or even act as a gentlemen... you can be a complete prick (not saying you were just saying anyone can be) with little to no reprecussion. so.. with only one rule in the tourny, you think it's ok to break it? a tournament is not the place for "counts as" models as you generally play people you don't know that may have different local interpretations of the rules than you do... is it worth it to have a possible argument over what a model actually has? mind you, i have no problem with "counts as" in normal games or apocalypse as long as it's written down (heck, i use heroclix aliens as genestealers!)... i just don't see it being the right thing to do in a tourny.

The Green Git wrote:I wouldn't have a problem with it if the player clearly explained the loadout before the game started.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you coudl order the FW kit (and man, those lascannons look awesome!) ...

The kit I got from Forgeworld was warped, lumpy and the detail was soft. I could do castings as good in my basement. It was surprisingly bad.

then call them, explain the issue and they will replace it. Not difficult.

You can't call WYSIWYG as the chin mounted LC isn't an option. WYSIWYG only applies to options and debatably only applies to characters by RaW. It certainly only applies to options, you're not expecting SW and CSM players to fit a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW on all their models are you?

It is not an option for a Vendetta hence it does not need to be shown.

FlingitNow wrote:You can't call WYSIWYG as the chin mounted LC isn't an option. WYSIWYG only applies to options and debatably only applies to characters by RaW. It certainly only applies to options, you're not expecting SW and CSM players to fit a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW on all their models are you?

It is not an option for a Vendetta hence it does not need to be shown.

you would be correct if we were talking only about regular 40k games. ard boyz has it's own set of rules published which require "Any armor, weapons and upgrades must be modelled on the miniatures (WYSIWYG)." we're talking about weapons on a miniature so they must be modelled.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m90029a_40KArdBoyzRules.pdf

also, most SW and CSM have various holsters, pouches, and knick knacks modelled onto them that satisfy the BP/CCW requirements. vendettas are (by virtue of GW not making an offical model or including weapons on the sprue) a conversion which people generally hold to a higher standard when it comes to WYSIWIG.

warboss wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:You can't call WYSIWYG as the chin mounted LC isn't an option. WYSIWYG only applies to options and debatably only applies to characters by RaW. It certainly only applies to options, you're not expecting SW and CSM players to fit a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW on all their models are you?

It is not an option for a Vendetta hence it does not need to be shown.

you would be correct if we were talking only about regular 40k games. ard boyz has it's own set of rules published which require "Any armor, weapons and upgrades must be modelled on the miniatures (WYSIWYG)." we're talking about weapons on a miniature so they must be modelled.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m90029a_40KArdBoyzRules.pdf

also, most SW and CSM have various holsters, pouches, and knick knacks modelled onto them that satisfy the BP/CCW requirements. vendettas are (by virtue of GW not making an offical model or including weapons on the sprue) a conversion which people generally hold to a higher standard when it comes to WYSIWIG.

Actually, he wouldn't technically be correct for normal 40k anyway. While it's commonly accepted that standard wargear doesn't have to be fully represented, only options and upgrades, the rules do not really support that idea, simply telling you that all weapons and wargear must be represented on a model, much like Ard Boys.

Fearspect wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then I dont see any particular issue with it - multilas are similar to lascannon anyway, and the model is clearly a vendetta as there is no other configuration it can be with the 2TL las under the wings.

I think this is the saliant point here. While you can argue he is being lazy, I think that the under-wing loadout defines this model (You can't have those Lascannons under the wings without also having front Lascannons).

So that works as long as you remember you are fighting a Vendetta with a counts-as Multilaser to Lascannon and not a Valkyrie with a counts-as Lascannons to Hellstrike Missiles.

The fact is, it does create an ambiguous situation, where someone not familiar with the army could end up unsure about what they are facing. I would expect it to be modelled properly, especially for a tournament like Ard Boyz.

Mannahnin wrote:I'd be a bit displeased. It could indeed be confusing to folks not familiar with the IG codex.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m90029a_40KArdBoyzRules.pdf

Per the rules:

“Any armor, weapons and upgrades must be modeled on the miniatures (WYSIWYG).”

Now, exactly how this is enforced would appear to be at the discretion of the organizer. I’d encourage you to ask them, and maybe they can relay the question on to Trade Sales if they don’t have the answer. I don’t know if they’d want to go so far as to forbid the model from the table, but as ‘Ard Boyz is supposed encourage model sales, perhaps they would. I probably would, if it were me.

Well, this is annoying. The Vendetta I got has Lascannons on the wings, but a ML on the nose. Although, it looks about the same.

Would you need two lascannons side-by-side to represent the twin-linked, or could you just have a single lascannon under each wing?

I've been playing against Vendettas since the new IG codex. It's taken me this long to see that my opponents actually went to the bother of putting the Lascannons on there. On Saturday I asked "When did you put the Lascannons on it?" I was met with a confused look, and laugh, and was told they'd been there since it was made (months ago). So really, I rely on being told what the weapons are, not looking at the model.

Also, I realise that not everyone is as good with their memory as that. So in a tournament situation it is most important that all models are WYSIWIG. If they're not, then it is up to the judge's discretion to give a penalty related to the severity of the model's disposition of being modeled incorrectly.

Oshova

I've no problem with it, as people say if the outloads are explained before play begins, which should be done anyway.
Now if the person negected to inform you, thats both his and your fault. his for not telling you that the outload didnt match the model. you for not asking after each model or unit, and seeing if the outloads match.
Ive always explained and had explained to me, each unit, every time ive played.

But, and its a big but. if the tournament states WYSIWYG, and isnt just giving the regulation lip service, then ya, get the dude isnt playing by the rules. so complain.

Actually, he wouldn't technically be correct for normal 40k anyway. While it's commonly accepted that standard wargear doesn't have to be fully represented, only options and upgrades, the rules do not really support that idea, simply telling you that all weapons and wargear must be represented on a model, much like Ard Boys.

Actually that is exactly what the rules say and could be read as only apply to characters:

BRB page 47, CHARACTERS wrote:
Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their codex. The rule is that such equipement must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing. This concept is often referred to...

BRB page 47, CHARACTERS wrote:
Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their codex. The rule is that such equipement must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing. This concept is often referred to...

Oh hey look at that, I can bold parts of the rule to make it read a certain way too.

Except it is under the characters section, so it can only apply to characters.

The correct bolding is "character models" as that is the subject of the sentence. If you are not a character model, either upgrade independent or unique, then the rule does not apply to you.

Aye, WYSIWYG is RAW only for character models in 5th.

unless youre going to ard boyz, in whichc ase theyve rewritten the wysiwyg rule for ard boyz.

Stop trying ot be cheap and or lazy and just buy the conversion kit or convert it yourself, laziness is not a virtue.

A local player just converted 6 Vendettas using another company's lascannons. It's kind of unfair to all the people that did convert when someone walks in with a Valkyrie and says it's a Vendetta.

Heck, if you want to be cheap just use plastic straws as the lascannon. You just have to have something long and cylindrical. Just don't show up with a multiple rocket pod and say it's a twin-linked lascannon.