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I played a game today against eldar. Towards the end of the game, a falcon tank shocked a squad I had on an objective. The issue was that the squad was in the bottom of a two level ruin, 2 or 3 of the models were even underneath one of the floors above. I'm not sure how I feel about it, it wasn't so much a tank shock as a landing on top of. To be fair my opponent made a dangerous terrain check and passed it. The basic idea was if it was a normal tank it would have been impossible but because it was both a skimmer and a tank it could hop over the 8 inch wall that was in the way.

Goin by the book it says aim the vehicle and declare how far it's moving. Once you've done that move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared - no other changes of direction are allowed during a tank shock. The other issues is this hopping tank shock sorta screw up the way death or glory works. How can I immobilise something on top of a dude from my squad? It's one of those 2D/3D issues that come up. The vehicles has to move into contact with the squad, but in doing so it's on top of the squad already. If I were to wreck, stun or immobilise it it would still be on top of my dudes and you can't end movement on top of other units.

I didn't really argue much with it, it's the first time it's ever come up. Opinions and thoughts would be welcome. I can see both sides of it sorta. If landing on top is like tank shocking then shouldn't all skimmers be able to do this?

If the unit was on the first floor with the objective unless there was a clean area directly behind a wall I don't think you could actually Tank shock. You have to make contact with the enemy so sitting on top of ruins wouldn't do that.

I agree with BlueDagger. The models were not being moved through, as the rule states; rather, they are being moved over.

However, if you wanted to get technical about it, the rule also says, "enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle". I guess, technically, they are underneath it. Just a couple of floors down. No, I'm not being serious. I just wanted to bring up some vague wording.

See p. 83, under "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking."

Janthkin wrote:See p. 83, under "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking."

Doesn't have any bearing here as that is stated about "troops" not tanks or vehicles. Ask someone sometime you you can drive through a ruined building with a rhino and see how that flies lol.

BlueDagger wrote:

Janthkin wrote:See p. 83, under "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking."

Doesn't have any bearing here as that is stated about "troops" not tanks or vehicles. Ask someone sometime you you can drive through a ruined building with a rhino and see how that flies lol.

So my elite Nobs can't move through ruins? My FA jump infantry can't? My heavy support walkers can't?
Claiming that it only refers to 'Troops' units can easily be shown through context to be incorrect, and a major vehicle type even gets permission to climb ruins on the same page.

I drive transports and tanks through ruins all the time, and you should too if they aren't declared impassable to them pre-game.

Gorkamorka wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:

Janthkin wrote:See p. 83, under "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking."

Doesn't have any bearing here as that is stated about "troops" not tanks or vehicles. Ask someone sometime you you can drive through a ruined building with a rhino and see how that flies lol.

So my elite Nobs can't move through ruins? My FA jump infantry can't? My heavy support walkers can't?
Claiming that it only refers to 'Troops' units can easily be shown through context to be incorrect, and a major vehicle type even gets permission to climb ruins on the same page.

I drive transports and tanks through ruins all the time, and you should too if they aren't declared impassable to them pre-game.

Pretty much this

Yea, ive always plowed through non impassable terrain with myorks ... gogo reinforced rams/deffrollas.

well its a skimmer, the only way to really be safe from a tank shock by a skimmer is to be inside a tunnel/cave where there will always be terrain between you and it without the model ever being able to pass through your squad...or just kill it

Agree with Janthkin, Gorkamorka, et al.

Vehicles can move through terrain, unless you specifically designate it otherwise. I often do this with opponents at the beginning of the game for pieces which would be difficult or impossible to sit a vehicle on top of, though not generally with any kind of area terrain.

The way I would resolve the indicated situation is, if the DoG attack stops the skimmer, to move the skimmer backwards to the point the rules state (just in front of the unit), and if that is not a point where the model can physically sit, then resolve it based on how you agreed to treat it at the start of the game. If you said that particular piece of terrain was impassible for a vehicle, move the vehicle back a bit further until it can legally be placed. If not, then place it as close as possible to the point where it should be, and mark the spot, as per Wobbly Model Syndrome.

Just to be clear I was referring to the wall of say a 3 story tall building. I'd have serious issues with someone claiming they were driving through the solid wall that is 3x the side of a rhino. Speckled ruin of half broken walls sometime the height of a rhino is no biggy, but claiming your driving through the actual walls of a building is a little ludicrous.

Also clarification on the "troops" thing, meant it seems to refer to infantry not vehicles.

BlueDagger wrote:Just to be clear I was referring to the wall of say a 3 story tall building. I'd have serious issues with someone claiming they were driving through the solid wall that is 3x the side of a rhino. Speckled ruin of half broken walls sometime the height of a rhino is no biggy, but claiming your driving through the actual walls of a building is a little ludicrous.

Also clarification on the "troops" thing, meant it seems to refer to infantry not vehicles.

It's perfectly legitimate to agree before the game that the walls of certain ruins are impassable to vehicles. It's also perfectly legitimate to do otherwise and allow vehicles to plow right through them.

And your clarification on the troops thing is still wrong. Jump Infantry aren't normal infantry, and they can climb ruins. So can walkers, which are vehicles. The rule also uses 'troops' (lowercase t) interchangeably with 'combatants' and 'models', as does the entirety of the buildings/ruins section. Hell, on the very same page as the quote it uses 'troops' to refer to jetbikes, MCs, and walkers! It also states that other units (like normal vehicles) can move on the ground levels of ruins.

The rule in question specifically says that the normal difficult terrain rules allow this exact situation (moving through obstacles like barriers and walls) to occur, and that you should discuss it beforehand with your opponent to clarify or make any changes.

Skip to the two minute mark to see about driving through walls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcv4T9Auy0U

WELL... after seeing the video i am FORCED to conclude that vehicles CAN and infact WILL drive through walls. ROFL!

Well I understand that a lot of the terrain rules come down to the pre game discussion. The thing is, we essentially agreed walls were indeed walls and true line of sight would take precident. We agreed that low walls (1inch) could be driven over but a dangerous terrain check would be required. The issue was this was a move I felt went against how we played literally the entire game. I never once drove a chimera or leman russ through an 8 inch tall multi level ruin, I had to maneuver as normal. He was able to hop over intervening terrain as he should be able because he had skimmers, no problem except for this one instance.

The issue I have with units melting through solid walls is that we don't have lego terrain. I'm sure a mighty terminator or dreadnought could bust through a concrete wall but we don't have lego terrain, we couldn't leave hole there. I'm sure my demolisher canon could knock down a whole ruin, but I don't have lego terrain and as such we have to agree to play things the way we see them not as we wish they were.

In any event I took a leadership test and got out of his way because the squad in question wouldn't have had anything that could damage it for death or glory, the issue I have is had I been able to death or glory, what would happen? The vehicle moves into contact with the squad as per the rules, but in this instance contact is on top of the squad, if I stun, immobilise or wreck the vehicle what happens?

Crablezworth wrote:...He was able to hop over intervening terrain as he should be able because he had skimmers, no problem except for this one instance. ...

I play Eldar too and I have seen this, here is where it goes wrong:

The Tank shock rules require you to move in a STRAIT LINE the prescribed distance.

"Hopping over things" is not a strait line.

Therefore:

A skimmer tank can not hop over things to do a tank shock. This means that troops can do things like hide behind a rhino, or behind a wreck, and a skimmer can not tank shock them because it can not move in a strait line to do so. In the example above, the skimmer can not move in a strait line, to the 3rd story of a building AND contact the troops hiding on the first floor. The same thing comes into play with multi story ruins, walls of any height and multiple vehicles. Could they move over it into that position? Sure, could they tank shock that way? No, because they have to move in a strait line, not some sort of curved line or vertical zig zag to hit the troops and then end up on the top floor of a multi-story building.

If you can clamp grenades onto a vehicle to breach its armor, I don't see why you couldnt do so to breach a ruined wall. Infact, isn't that one of the examples given regarding the difficult terrain tests involved while moving through ruins?


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Augustus wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:...He was able to hop over intervening terrain as he should be able because he had skimmers, no problem except for this one instance. ...

I play Eldar too and I have seen this, here is where it goes wrong:

The Tank shock rules require you to move in a STRAIT LINE the prescribed distance.

"Hopping over things" is not a strait line.

Therefore:

A skimmer tank can not hop over things to do a tank shock. This means that troops can do things like hide behind a rhino, or in a wreck, and a skimmer can not tank shock them because it can not move in a strait line to do so. In the example above, the skimmer can not move in a strait line, to the 3rd story of a building AND contact the troops hiding on the first floor. The same thing comes into play with multi story ruins, walls of any height and multiple vehicles. Could they move over it into that position? Sure, could they tank shock that way? No, because they have to move in a strait line, not some sort of curved line or vertical zig zag to hit the troops and then end up on the top floor of a multi-story building.

He doesnt need to go over it, he can go through it, and besides that, hes a skimmer, he ignores terrain up until the point that he begins or ends in it, at which point he risks a dangerous terrain test.

Falconlance wrote:If you can clamp grenades onto a vehicle to breach its armor, I don't see why you couldnt do so to breach a ruined wall. Infact, isn't that one of the examples given regarding the difficult terrain tests involved while moving through ruins?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:...He was able to hop over intervening terrain as he should be able because he had skimmers, no problem except for this one instance. ...

I play Eldar too and I have seen this, here is where it goes wrong:

The Tank shock rules require you to move in a STRAIT LINE the prescribed distance.

"Hopping over things" is not a strait line.

Therefore:

A skimmer tank can not hop over things to do a tank shock. This means that troops can do things like hide behind a rhino, or in a wreck, and a skimmer can not tank shock them because it can not move in a strait line to do so. In the example above, the skimmer can not move in a strait line, to the 3rd story of a building AND contact the troops hiding on the first floor. The same thing comes into play with multi story ruins, walls of any height and multiple vehicles. Could they move over it into that position? Sure, could they tank shock that way? No, because they have to move in a strait line, not some sort of curved line or vertical zig zag to hit the troops and then end up on the top floor of a multi-story building.

He doesnt need to go over it, he can go through it, and besides that, hes a skimmer, he ignores terrain up until the point that he begins or ends in it, at which point he risks a dangerous terrain test.

I think the fundamental thing you have to understand about 40k is terrain is nothing until you define it. The pre game discussion with your opponent about terrain is the single most important part of the game. In the rulebook it gives rule sets for terrain but almost every paragraph it talks about you and your opponent deciding how you want to play it. Ruins are an example of that, deciding with your opponent whether you need to use a ladder or not to get up to another floor, whether walls can be moved through or not and so on. In this instance myself and my opponent we playing that walls were indeed walls, only low walls could be driven over or climbed over, if the wall was higher than an inch you needed to go around it. You yourself may play differently, which is totally fine.




Disregard the skimmer aspect for a second, let's say I've got a squad at the bottom of a cliff, flush with the cliff wall. Above the squad 8 inches up at the top of the cliff is a rhino, the rhino wishes to tank shock me, as he is 8 inches away (above me) he would have to drive right off the cliff to make contact, which would mean he is right on top of me to make contact. Would you allow this? If so, how would you handle death or glory? If I stunned/immobilised/wrecked the vehicle, would it remain at the top of the cliff like it never drove off?

BlueDagger wrote:Just to be clear I was referring to the wall of say a 3 story tall building.

If it's a building, then he can't enter it if your troops are in it. Buildings are treated essentially like transport vehicles.

If it's a Ruin, whether or not he can move through the walls depends entirely on how the two of you decide to play the walls. The rules offer the choice of treating ruins as abstract representations (in which case walls can be moved through regardless of actual access points), or as physical models (in which case walls can only be moved through where there is some sort of hole through it that is big enough for the model).

Falconlance wrote:If you can clamp grenades onto a vehicle to breach its armor, I don't see why you couldnt do so to breach a ruined wall. Infact, isn't that one of the examples given regarding the difficult terrain tests involved while moving through ruins?


He doesnt need to go over it, he can go through it, and besides that, hes a skimmer, he ignores terrain up until the point that he begins or ends in it, at which point he risks a dangerous terrain test.

Where is the game mechanic to breach a ruined wall? I've never seen one; and before you say it was figurative I'm going to say that a nuke will flatten that wall pretty good too .


As stated; the rule states that the vehicle must goin in a straight line. I tell you what; if you're going to sit there and say that the skimmer hopping the wall is a straight line; I'm going to say that my Russ shells are a "straight" line, but they curve down and hit your infantry right behind that same wall .




Crashing through walls in the fluff is awesome and makes sense, but on the game it does not. If you take a dreadnaught as an example, in the fluff it can knock its way through walls, but on the game there is no mechanic for this. There is a dangerous terrain, but that is if he trips and falls on rough ground, not knocks himself out walking into a wall, or collapses the building on his head. The other side to this where it doesn't make sense is that if I shot at that dreadnaught with my demolisher, the round would ping off the wall and hit nothing because no line of sight, but in the fluff, it'd pile straight through and likely kill anyone that was in its path, where in the game if I shot through a window or crack the round would only do damage where it lands.


There are still many things to this game that make it very much like chess; there are things you can and can't do, and sometimes they don't make sense; like a bishop can only come in on the diaganal; but we've see lots of news reports of these guys getting caught going STRAIGHT up the rear on lots of young pawns . Same for the knight; it has a slowed horse that can trot forward twice, but has to fall to the side once either way to get its balance. And the rook just picks up its foundatios and goes on ward. And the Queen gets out of the kitchen! Its endless the things that don't make "sense" but is the mechanic of the game.



Because of 5ths leap into 3 dimensional thinking with line of sight its leading to a lot more things like this; and in short, the rule states that tank shocking needs to be in a "straight" line, to say that the vehicle just "pops" over the wall but its still a straight line just opens a case of canned worms on how balastics for weapons should be worked out; cause anyone here with th slightest knowledge or experience with firearms will tell you a bullet's trajectory is far from a "straight line"

insaniak wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Just to be clear I was referring to the wall of say a 3 story tall building.

If it's a building, then he can't enter it if your troops are in it. Buildings are treated essentially like transport vehicles.

If it's a Ruin, whether or not he can move through the walls depends entirely on how the two of you decide to play the walls. The rules offer the choice of treating ruins as abstract representations (in which case walls can be moved through regardless of actual access points), or as physical models (in which case walls can only be moved through where there is some sort of hole through it that is big enough for the model).

And that indeed is how we were playing the whole game, exactly what our eyes saw, very little abstraction if any.

Dracheous wrote:Where is the game mechanic to breach a ruined wall?

Page 83: "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking."

Most of that section talks about deciding with your opponent how you want to play it.

Crablezworth wrote:Most of that section talks about deciding with your opponent how you want to play it.

But first, it establishes the general rule: models can move through "solid" ruin walls. If you don't want to play it that way, make sure your opponent concurs.

Yup, as area terrain, ruins are abstract by default. So yes, you should discuss how to play them with your opponent... but if that doesn't happen, the rules tell you how to treat area terrain: The walls block LOS, but not movement.

We weren't playing them as ruins, they were not area terrain for the purpose of our game. The terrain in question was A ruin but we were not using that ruleset except for climbing up and down levels (rolling a 3 or higher for difficult). Other than moving up and down levels no difficult terrain checks were required. The only way into the "ruin" was that it had two low walls (1 inch) on 2 sides of it, the other two walls were 8 inches or higher and had walkways on one side of them. They also had very few windows, earlier in the game when my squad was firing out only about 4 of the 10 were even able to shoot. Believe me were playing very much real line of sight true 3D as 5th edition can be. Which is why this movement caught me so off guard.

Dracheous wrote:...the rule states that the vehicle must goin in a straight line. I tell you what; if you're going to sit there and say that the skimmer hopping the wall is a straight line...

These are not strait lines, it can't be geometrically done, no matter how 2 people "rule" on ruins, that whole argument is meaningless next to this.

The problem here is that the rules don't tell us how far we can go with that.

The falcon hopping the rhino is very clearly not moving in a straight line.

But replace the rhino with a low hill. Or a small log. Or a gerbil. Or anything else other than a perfectly flat table surface... the falcon is likewise forced to alter its height along the way, and so can not move in a straight line.

Which leaves us, by RAW, with vehicles only ever being able to perform a tank shock on a dead flat table surface.

How large an obstacle you let them hop over then comes down entirely on you and your opponent sorting it out amongst yourselves.

I believe the rules as written are referring to the vector on a 2D plane, because they discuss turning the vehicle to face the direction of the tank shock and then specifying the desired distance of movement. But the straight line portion is a good starting point IMO for arguing against hopshocking as I've decided to call it.

The hopping with skimmers really is one of those things you have to discuss beforehand I guess. I mean if you're playing in urban terrain and some building are 12-24 inches high, how much do you really want skimmers to get away with? Same with jump infantry.

insaniak wrote:The problem here is that the rules don't tell us how far we can go with that.

The falcon hopping the rhino is very clearly not moving in a straight line.

But replace the rhino with a low hill. Or a small log. Or a gerbil. Or anything else other than a perfectly flat table surface... the falcon is likewise forced to alter its height along the way, and so can not move in a straight line.

Which leaves us, by RAW, with vehicles only ever being able to perform a tank shock on a dead flat table surface.

How large an obstacle you let them hop over then comes down entirely on you and your opponent sorting it out amongst yourselves.

Insaniak, I'm going to call you out on being argumentative and a little pedantic on this one:

insaniak wrote:But replace the rhino with a low hill.

Not a strait line, this is the same as my image example assuming an equivalent size and geometry.

insaniak wrote:Or a small log.

Would pass beneath the tank moving in a strait line.

insaniak wrote:Or a gerbil.

Obviously a joke, I assume.

insaniak wrote:Or anything else other than a perfectly flat table surface

A strait line can easily be drawn up or downhill for a move. Over things that would fit beneath the skimmer etc. There's a big difference between log jumping and the examples shown in the image.

It's not that complex.