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Hello Dakka, I have been lurking for a little bit but decided to break the seal and make my first post (so be gentle ).

It is well known that Tau are very shooty and get trounced in CC, but my idea was to help give Tau a chance to do some damage in CC while still maintaining their core principles. To do this I was thinking that Tau should be able to spend markerlight hits to allow for a unit outside of close combat to fire at an enemy unit that is in close combat during the shooting phase. Probably with the normal intervening unit cover save applied. This would make it so that the units that can utilize Markerlights can help their brethren locked in CC by thinning or eliminating enemy units that they are locked in combat with.

This would open up a few things for the Tau while still allowing their opponents to get the satisfaction of trouncing them in the assault phase:

- Photon Grenades are useful again since you might be able to save firewarriors that get stuck in assault in the enemy's turn instead of wanting them to break and die so you can shoot at them during your turn. (wanting your units to die seems very un-Tau fluff wise anyway).
- It moves the kroot away from just being speed bumps and turns them into a unit that you may actually want win (same fluff reasoning in that commanders that go into a fight trying to sacrifice units knowing they are going to get slaughtered seems un-Tau).
- 2 models can be dealt with so that they don't carve a huge gash through your army by hiding from the Tau shooting phase by being in CC

I was also thinking that since CC is described as a swirling melee that is very chaotic that it would probably make sense to have to spend multiple markerlights per unit to allow them to shoot into the melee as they will want to be extra sure of where they are firing in order to avoid friendly fire. 2 seems to be an appropriate number, but not having tested this I am not sure. I was also thinking that markerlights could be fired at units in hand to hand since its not a wounding attack and there isn't a chance for friendly fire.

So what do you guys think? Could this be a viable alternative for the Tau so that they can deal with CC specialists while still sucking at hand to hand fighting?

Shooting into CC, I would have to disagree. somehow buffing kroot or adding some CC wargear or unit would be a better alternative, though I doubt we will ever see that. But Tau are shooty, and they always have been so I don' really see a need for them to get a huge CC buff, although a WS of at least 3 and a BS of 4 would help in making Tau a more formidable opponent.

i think both their current WS and BS is fair for what a fire warrior is. Effectively a better equipped guardsman? I'd simply improve their leadership and initiative and decrease their points.

Battlesuits however, considering their size, could be given increased strength or what-not to make them 'capable' in assault.

No CC improvements for Tau. They have no need of cc any measurabe way outside of Farsight and kroot.

Tau need ways to avoid close combat. Anything done to improve their CC capabilities kills the concept of Tau and you would have another army that is not Tau.

Yeah I would agree that they aren't supposed to be good in CC. Allowing them to shoot into CC would still make it so that the Tau are doing all their damage during the Shooting phase and not in the assault phase. They would also still have to weather the initial round of assault and not run after they lost, it really isn't a buff to the Tau's CC abilities, its a buff to the Tau's target selection during the shooting phase so that units outside of the close combat can come to the aid of a unit that is already in CC.

For the unit starting the turn in close combat they would still follow the normal rules of not being able to shoot and only attacking in the assault phase.

There are several problems with shooting into close combat:

1)GW has stated that this is something that they will not do.

2)Even with markerlight help the unit would have to get a 2+ cover save.

3) What do you do about area effect weapons such as blast or templates?

4)How do you apply morale checks? If failec how do you apply the Fall back?

These are just a few issues with the idea, but there are others I'm sure. The idea could work but you would have to change so many rules that it would become overly complicated.

While most of these issues could be overcome, I doubt that GW is going to change their stance. It is interesting though.

focusedfire wrote:There are several problems with shooting into close combat:

1)GW has stated that this is something that they will not do.

2)Even with markerlight help the unit would have to get a 2+ cover save.

3) What do you do about area effect weapons such as blast or templates?

4)How do you apply morale checks? If failec how do you apply the Fall back?

These are just a few issues with the idea, but there are others I'm sure. The idea could work but you would have to change so many rules that it would become overly complicated.

While most of these issues could be overcome, I doubt that GW is going to change their stance. It is interesting though.

Ahh, I wasn't aware GW had a firm stance on not firing into CC, that does kind of kill the whole thing, eh? Heh. I would think that the cover save would be fine since it definitely makes sense, it would also be the case where more markerlights spent could reduce that to a more manageable level, the blast and templates would work like normal where you can never cover your own model purposefully with a template (scattering into your own unit would be an option albeit dangerous) so if there are no models that are out of base to base contact you wouldn't be able to place template or blast markers. Moral checks would not be taken, as I believe there is a rule already that says that models locked in CC are so focused on wailing on each other that they ignore all moral tests except for the one at the end of the combat result.

I still think it could work, but as you said, if GW has already made it known that they won't allow anyone to shoot into CC that sets the bar on that hurdle pretty high

The Tau do not need any special assault treatment. Being a Tau player myself, I have found that, while I still get destroyed in close combat, the Tau have an amazing array of upgrades that allow for them to escape the enemy. The vehicle multi-tracker and target lock for example allow me to go in circles around the enemy shooting at will with all of my guns. This distracts the enemy and leaves my fire warriors alone. The only team that this has not worked on is the Necrons as the lord can teleport his army right in front of me and assualt.

Tychron wrote:I still think it could work, but as you said, if GW has already made it known that they won't allow anyone to shoot into CC that sets the bar on that hurdle pretty high

Well, this is the same company that said all codices would be made current before they updated the rules and that statement was made back in 4th ed if memory serves me correctly. If I'm wrong on this some one please correct me.

Point I'm attempting to make here is that occassionally GW will change their stance on something but it is never on the things you want.

Whatsit Tooya wrote:The Tau do not need any special assault treatment. Being a Tau player myself, I have found that, while I still get destroyed in close combat, the Tau have an amazing array of upgrades that allow for them to escape the enemy. The vehicle multi-tracker and target lock for example allow me to go in circles around the enemy shooting at will with all of my guns. This distracts the enemy and leaves my fire warriors alone. The only team that this has not worked on is the Necrons as the lord can teleport his army right in front of me and assualt.

What? Tau Vehicles move 12" and can fire one gun while doing so.

A Necron lord can deepstrike one squad in front of you and can not assault that turn, which is far less devastating than say a drop pod marine list or an all deep striking Blood Angels or Tyranid list.

This is (one of) the main problems Tau have right now, armies can close to assault range and give only one turn of shooting (or less. Hello Dante in a Vanguard squad). GW has 'shrunk' the board with multiple low risk deep-striking options, turbo boosting scout moves, and off the back edge flanking units. whenever they get around to Necrons and Tau, they're going to have to look at options to stretch the board back out, which seems like it's going to be a lot harder to do, especially if it's going to invalidate the bonuses given to other armies to shrink the board.

Kroot Loops wrote:(or less. Hello Dante in a Vanguard squad).

You do realize that Vanguard squad now can not assault out of DS because it has an IC attached to it right? Because if you could I'd be modeling up some Vanguard models right now.

Neconilis wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:(or less. Hello Dante in a Vanguard squad).

You do realize that Vanguard squad now can not assault out of DS because it has an IC attached to it right? Because if you could I'd be modeling up some Vanguard models right now.

Oh? That's good to know, will change some things in the FLGS. However the BA version still only scatters d6" correct? That will still give them the assault more often than not.

The main purpose of Tau is that they are awful at CC with their slow responses, reflected by their poor WS and Int and use higher powered weapons to compensate.

So while not trying to say "no you can't do that" because after all, this is a proposed rules forum and not a this is how it is forum, why not try to amend their abilities rather than try to alter existing rules.

Have you considered making rules for additional abilities that Tau units can buy? Perhaps something like grenades that the entire squad can buy that when assualted by the enemy, increases their initative by 2 for example and cost 4pts per model.

I also think that if you are to upgrade CC abilities of the Tau then it should ideally be done to Vespid and/or Kroot. Maybe a new breed of Kroot who are faster and stronger while keeping their armour save and toughness would cost slightly more.

At the end of the day my view when making rules is not to alter an army to satisfy misgivings on their abilities but to introduce new rules and functions that can add an extra flare to your friendly games. All armies are fairly well balanced in most cases, so rather than altering stats for the sake of it they should have points increases to reflect their new founded abilities

Regarding shooting into CC: there are too many units and models which simply rely too much on getting into CC to protect them from shooting armies. Storm Guardians in the open get munched, but they stand a decent chance if they get into CC with a shooter unit since other units can't shoot at them, for instance.

I went back and edited the main text of the proposed rule to further clarify the change I was attempting to convey. I am not proposing that the Tau get a buff in the assault phase. Or that the unit in close combat be able to do anything special.

The idea would be that supporting units not in close combat would be able to spend markerlights in their shooting phase to allow them to target an enemy unit that is engaged in close combat with a friendly. The unit engaged would still only be able to inflict wounds in their assault phase. I think this make sense from an overall army perspective because it would further reinforce the combined arms and mutual support aspects of the tau army while still maintaining their weakness in CC compared to other armies.

It would take at least 3 units working together to allow for this rule to take effect as well, so I don't think it would be overpowering in a gaming sense, since you would need to have 1 unit tied up in close combat (and probably taking casualties or already having taken casualties due to their lack of CC skill), another supporting unit painting the target with multiple markerlights, and a third unit which spends those markerlights to shoot at an enemy in close combat.

It would be a simple change to the markerlight rules to allow this which would then open up the possibilities for a lot of other units to be useful without extensively modifying statlines. I think it would help Photon grenades, open up a new role for Kroot, Vespid, and even boost Firewarriors so that full squads are a decent option.

i think the i dea of shooting into combat would be useful but i have a better idea!!!

you could give tau tanks an upgrade that stops deep strike and here it is...

Photon disruptor

any unit atempting to deep stirk within 18 must take a leadership test if they fail they must wait till next turn to try again
units within 12 must also take deep strike mishap.

I have always thought that the tau should be able to have reactions to the assault just like in warhammer fantasy.

So they could either choose to flee and fall back then rally as normal or stand and shoot. Maybe not let them rapid fire but at least one shot.

But only for FW not suits, drones,kroot etc. Plus that would count as their attacks in cc as well.

Just giving Firewarriors their optional grenades, as was done in the current Space Marine codices, would fix a lot of CC problems.

Never getting an extra attack for charging would hurt any attacking troops.

IMO Tau doesnt need any more CC units than kroots and the others, since Orks are good only in CC and they cant shoot a .
So they are the total opposite...

goggari wrote:IMO Tau doesnt need any more CC units than kroots and the others, since Orks are good only in CC and they cant shoot a .
So they are the total opposite...

Oh yeah, we all know Lootas and Shoota boyz are terrible at laying on the dakka.

A better one would be free retro thrusters on all the suits.

Hit and run used to be quite a big advantage but now its dependent on initiative, so won't give tau too much of an edge, also the chance of you still being alive after a round of combat is slim.

Also, its a bit like dawn of war...

@omgnowaiii: Right now Photon Grenades typically hurt the Tau instead of helping them. One less attack for an enemy charging at you just means that they are less likely to wipe you out in that turns assault, which means, if you make your Ld test that your unit is stuck in combat and the rest of your army can't shoot at the assaulting unit.

That is the whole problem. The sequence goes Enemy turn assault, Tau unit takes some losses but stays in combat, in the Tau turn they are unable to shoot at the unit still locked in combat so they can't do much if any dmg to them, Tau assault phase the enemy mops up combat by killing or breaking the rest of the unit, Enemy turn they are ready to move and assault their assault troops into another part of the Tau army.

In order to win Tau players have to limit this scenario as much as possible. They do this by taking small units of weak throw away "speed bump" squads that if assaulted will be wiped out in the opponents assault phase so that they can be shot in the next Tau shooting phase. Like i mentioned in my first post, throwing away units goes against the Tau fluff since they tend to portray them as valuing the life of their soldiers and would rather retreat and save their army than fight a hopeless battle.

@comrade_nikolai: I like the Hit and Run on all suits, but I am not sure buffing their suits is the answer, they are already really good. Buffing them further just reinforces the practice of focusing on elite suits and taking only the minimum number of required troops into battle.