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My vote is no more scorpions for me also. If there is no infiltration in the mission they become extra useless. Regular assault marines which I consider thier equivalent they can't stand up to because of hidden fists, flamers and plasma pistols. No fleet, no more instakilling characters, and sometimes being able to infiltrate equals a permanant spot on my shelf.

What? How is going from S8 to St6 better?

If you read the post you see there are compensations for not having S8.

but Eldar are not short of anti-tank
- Are you serious?

Very. Fusion guns are now S8, you can still have bright lances, mscatter lasers are good against light vehicles and it doesnt cost much to give a Farseer a Bs5 S9 spear, and he is good on a bike too. Then you have Swooping Hawk intercept. Anyone who thinks Eldar need power fists for anti-tank has been playing marines too long. Eldar do it differently.

6 is good enough.

WRONG. Actually it's not at all, it's horrible, it was the only S8 fist equivalent in the entire Eldar army, it's loss is crippling. .

See above comment. Eldar are not marines.

The hidden fist is the biggest threat to enemy T4 HQ choices, and they populate the entire game, it was also the linchpin for having a chance against a monstrous creature or a walker of any sort, all gone, this is a massive ding in the battlefiled ability of the assault unit, at S6, they don't instakill T4, and need 4s to wound T6, making the unit go from dangerous to below average, it's like an IG glove, awful!

Striking Scorpions are intended as an anti horde unit. you dont need S8 anti-horde. However the +1A and the optiuon to strike at S4 on initiative is good allowing for their intended target.

Who cares in a unit full of attacks, one more iattacking at I sn't what you need, and loosing a pistol shot? irrelevant.

You miss the point, you get an EXTRA claw attack. Also the pistol shot is replaced by the catapult, which makes sense, before you had two guns.


If you thought they were just for anti horde in the old rules it just shows you didnt know how to play then, and discredits your post.

Try not to flame, the only one you discredit is yourself.

I used haywire gernades with mine. I know all too well what Scorpions can and could do. However now there are aspects that are greatly improved as anti tank. Fire Dragons and Swooping Hawks with intercept. The front of the codex describes aspect warriors as specialists, it was more fluffy to give them a single specific role - at which they excell.

I dont doubt that scorpions can do less, thats not the point of my post. My post simply states that the rule changes to scorpion claw give as well as take and that it is still a viable option even at S6.

I will be keeping my Striking Scorpions, yes its a shame they are not longer multi role. But by no means that mean they suck.

Dude, just because your favorite unit has changed (in you op. for the worst) doesn't mean the Eldar has been defanged and/or the majority of the aspects are worthless. The very description you gave of the st8 clawed scorpions is versatile, which the Eldar were never meant to be. Every unit is a cog in the larger wheel. Perhaps its more difficult to master with the new dex, but thats one of the challenges.
If you want an easier army to play get some vanilla marines. As for Eldar lacking anti_tank, thats just plain ridiculous. Avatars, an Autarch, singing spears, fire dragons, wraithguard, harlequins, guardians, shining spears, warp spiders, vypers, wraithlords, war walkers, falcons and fir prisms are all equiped with weapons or have the option to upgrade to weapons that can smoke most tanks. Some require a bit of trickery and guile, but thats what Eldar excel at.
If you want a real character killer use a unit of harlequins. Even a small unit with kisses and fusion pistols shoul be able to smoke most hqs. For added surivability give them shadowseer.
I perfectly undertsand being frusterated when a unit or rule that made very good use of changes with a new dex edition. But its unfair to give the entire dex the short end of the stick because one or two new rules make you very unhappy. The way you present it they've overhauled and changed every aspect for the worse, and that is hardly the case. So either grow up and choke down your frustration or write to GW and complain to the people who are actually responsible for changing those rules.

Don't scorpions come with plasma grenades standard now?

Are scorpions are weaker than they were? Yes. Does that mean they aren't worth taking, or worthy of the F- you gave them? No. They are atually better than they were at taking out any marine/csm squad that doesn't have a character attached since they now have 1 extra hit on 3, wound on 2 claw attack instead of some I8 mandiblaster shot.

I also don't know what your problem with warp spiders is. I know my regular opponents hate them. They got nothing but buffed with this codex. Moved to fast attack where the only real competion is swooping hawks. Changed the deathspinner to assault instead of rapid fire. Able to give the exarch an extra 2 bs 6 str 6 shots.

They are murder against hordes. They can take out most tanks because they are able to get side/rear armor due to their movement. They are good at causing torrent rolls on almost any squad. You can't pin them down in assault. JSJ is really annoying.

Actually if you read the way its set up Scorpion exarch's have a str 8 power fist, the exarch keeps the chainsword which in its wording gives you +1 strength, I know this sounds nonsensical that using a different weapon would assist you but it does.

Also i find it funny people keep forgetting about the beautiful effectiveness of swooping hawks to seize objectives.

Dark Reapers are ok, but frankly i think they should have been given blade storm instead of the autarch only ROF boost.

I don't use banshees currently, because of that 2nd turn dead zone they are in if your opponent goes first.

I have been doing extremely well playing lately with a squad of 10 SS backed by Karandas, and a squad of SH backed by Baharroth, and two Snakes of Fury (Wave Serpent with a tooled out Dire avengers with Exarch who has double ASC)

The force seems to be good at objective snatching, and I seem to play alot of nasty vehicle armies and either of those seem to be very nice at slaughtering vehicles. Charging with 5 and 8 attacks from a 8/10 power fist, or attacking with 6 emp grenades, (3 hits, 1 glancing, 1 to 2 penetrating)

Posted By citadel97501 on 01/27/2007 10:08 AM
Actually if you read the way its set up Scorpion exarch's have a str 8 power fist, the exarch keeps the chainsword which in its wording gives you +1 strength, I know this sounds nonsensical that using a different weapon would assist you but it does.

Sorry I dont buy this. If scorpion chainswords add +1S to the exarch it would still be added after not before you double the strength, so you get S7 at best.

However its quite specific that its the chainsword that is +1S not the Scorpion.

So you get a choice:

4x S6 I1 armour ignoring attacks or 4x S4 I6 normal attacks.

Still better than what you had before in the squads primary role..

Given that we're talking about a footslogging assault unit, I agree with Augustus that losing their ability to deal with vehicles and instant-kill Marine HQs is a big deal.

A footslogging assault unit will frequently be counter-charged, and its ability to deal with various possible counterchargers is a very important factor. Scorpions are now extremely vulnerable to being countercharged by a lone MEQ HQ, a Dread, or a monstrous creature. This is a big weakness.

Losing their ability to reliably damage tanks hurts as well. Previously, if they were in close to your opponent's army, he couldn't just use tanks to shield his infantry, or leave a pred close and keep it shooting at you. If he didn't want it to get charged and fisted, he would need to move it away, most likely compromising its shooting.

I disagree with Augustus' having written them off entirely; they're still good at the things they CAN do. But their utility has definitely been reduced.

Fire Dragons, Bleh

Swooping Hawks, Maybe (Objective taking and repeated bombing)

Striking Scorpions, HELL YEAH (I advise large squad with Karandas)

Dire Avengers, NICE! (Bladestorm, and wave serpent for a nice Snake of Fury)

Howling Banshees, Maybe with a good psyker to assist with doom

Dark Reapers, Maybe but so many good Heavy Support choices

Wraithguard, not bad but do they count?

Harlies, only tried them once and they died like IG, i went first and only got 1 out of 12 into CC

Shining Spears, haven't tried them yet. . .

Pathfinders, Great but expsencive, Do they count

How did that happen?

To the Scorpions: I don't like an assault unit that doesn't has fleet.

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted By citadel97501 on 01/29/2007 5:45 PM


Harlies, only tried them once and they died like IG, i went first and only got 1 out of 12 into CC

Did you give them a Shadowseer and Veil of Tears?????  Because if not, you need to be hit with the stupid stick.  And I say that in the nicest possible way.

While I agree with a lot of Augustus' posts, I can't agree totally with his doom and gloom attitude, nor can I agree with the rainbow ponies and chocolate rivers approach of the current player crowd...

Due to the general feebleness of GW's tournament objectives, everything boils down to VP denial / return.

Here's my 2 cents:  Let's get the good out of the way first:

Firedragons, Dire Avengers, Spears are good.  These guys will most likely break even (or better on points return) - will probably use... (Though I agree with the 3x bikes + spearlock being a more flexible RoI).

Banshees
- Banshees < Harlequins
- If they are supported by a farseer, they are pretty good.  However, a 10x banshee squad, +taxi, +doomseer on bike is getting into the 500 zone.  It had better kill an enemy squad... the trouble is if your opponent is smart, he'll positition so that you wipe out on his turn, and then he'll shoot your ladies full of AP4 bullets.  If they're on foot, they'll probably have eaten their fill of assault cannon, heavy bolter and more mundane shots on their way to the infinity circuit.

Scorpions
- Scorpions < Harlequins
- A canny opponent will never let them get into assault because they are so damned slow.  A rhino can and will totally stall up their advance towards your opponent because they can barely hurt the thing now without grenades and their S8 claw.  They will rarely get the assault off against assaulty armies (as daemonbombs and assault squads are faster than them) and they will take at least 3 turns to close towards the shooty armies (assuming they don't back up out of the way or don't get shot before that...)

Hawks
- Are good at killing vehicles - otherwise, they're pretty terrible!  Better hope that vehicle cost more points than your hawks, otherwise you're throwing away VPs!

Spiders
- These guys are fast moving dudes who can harm light vehicles with a bunch of S6 shots and kill light infantry.  Heavy infantry scoff at the AP- and assaulty enemy units laugh at their terrible HTH abiilty.  They might be good in their role, but the metagame is such that other than killing landspeeders, they are an expensive unit that will never make back its points cost (with the added bonus of possible self destructs).

Dark Reapers
- These guys are < than Falcons and Wraithlords.  There isn't all that much that is really terrible about them, its just that they can't win the VP war vs. those other choices.

Keezus,...

...rainbow ponies and chocolate rivers approach...

Banshees - probably have eaten their fill of assault cannon, heavy bolter and more mundane shots on their way to the infinity circuit.

Superb! That's hilarious!

I can't agree totally with his doom and gloom attitude

Are you sure? Looks like we are almost in line with everything except Spears...

This thread has got me wondering a lot however and I was digging into the codex for more details and I noticed a few things... Like the triskele in the Banshee unit, wow that's a great piece of kit, also banshees are only 16 points, 1 more than a marine, I was wondering if perhaps 30 of them would be viable? Reconsidering my take on them being redundant with Harlequins because they are cheaper!

I did a quick 1850 list that had me wondering:

Avatar

Jain Zar

3x10 Banshees

6x10 Guardians with Brightlance

3x1 Wraithlord with EML/Bright Lance/Flamers

94 models, 60 fearless Guardians, 12 Antitank weapons (Not to bad in escalation or Vs pods either... I think this might be able to put up a reasonable fight and not include any super falcons... (I am worried about the stupidity rules with the wraithlords though, this list would fail one every other turn on average. I was also considering taking Brightlance and Scatter lasers on the Wraithlords)

?

30 banshees would give my Marine, Necron and IG armies pause, and podding into an avatar with 3 wraithlords running around would be crazy.  I suppose it might come down to terrain...

A foot horde can be surprisingly resilient.  I helped a buddy playtest a 60 guardian list.  It contained:

Avatar
Seeing-Eye-Farseer (Guide)
6x 10 Guardians w/ SL and Concealock
3x WW with SL
2x Wraithlord LOS blockers with lance/EML combo
8x Scorps

I took an IW army.

LT on a bike w/ extra attack, darkblade, meltagun, d-rune
3x 2 Oblits
4x 6x Man Las/Plas
2x 8x Man Havocs w/ 4x H-Bolter w/ Aspiring Fist Champ
Vindicator w/ Mutated Hull, Smoke
Basilisk w/ Mutated Hull, Indirect

At the end of the game he had:

1 Warwalker, no guns in combat
4x Guardian squads reduced to 1-3 men!
Avatar

I had:

3x 2 Obliterators (took a sprinkling of wounds)
1 half size Havoc Squad
2 Las/Plas Squads
Basilisk

While that has the apperance of a rout, I only got a minor victory since I couldn't finish off squads in his slowed army of all fearless models.  That last living (but near useless) warwalker was annoying too!  Keep in mind that I was trying to kill the Avatar, since without his skank ass, the Guardian horde would have bolted off the table... so blockers for him are key.

(Edit - I went second, and one of the Havoc squads bolted off the table on turn 1 before I could use it.)

(Edit 2 - He made stupid amounts of conceal saves)

(Edit 3 - My bike LT killed 16 guardians, and a farseer in HTH over 4 turns.  The avatar joined combat on turn 3.  He failed to kill the bike LT (daemonic rune) until turn 6.  One of the onlookers said I could have made it a solid victory had I continued to pound the Guardian squad remnants instead of trying to hurt the Avatar (he made all his saves)...  Granted, that bike Lt had no business living for that many turns on only one wound.)

Posted By keezus on 01/30/2007 8:17 AM

Spiders
- These guys are fast moving dudes who can harm light vehicles with a bunch of S6 shots and kill light infantry.  Heavy infantry scoff at the AP- and assaulty enemy units laugh at their terrible HTH abiilty.  They might be good in their role, but the metagame is such that other than killing landspeeders, they are an expensive unit that will never make back its points cost (with the added bonus of possible self destructs).

They actually butcher speeders and other AV10 vehicles.  Saying they "can harm" is understating it a bit.

If you give the Exarch Powerblades, the squad can actually do quite a number on smaller/shooty units of marines.  A bunch of S6 shots on the way in combined with a few WS5 (even though only S3) power weapon attacks should see off a small squad of marines sharpish.  Sure they're not good at taking on assault units.  That's why they have 12" move and a second jump.

They also have the speed to apply all those S6 shots to the side or rear armor on bigger tanks.  Even though they can't penetrate, the cumulative damage rules in v4 allow the glances to add up to crippled and killed tanks.  Spiders don't need a transport and can hurt many different types of target are nice and flexible.  It adds up to a pretty good unit.

I would have a bunch of them if we haven't had the old 2nd edition models...

Greets
Schepp himself

Why would you take brightlances on all your guardian squads. I don't expect more than 3 av13+ tanks, so 9 BL's are a bit of overkill, and EML's are just as good against lighter tanks.

If you do a couple scatter laser squads, they would be better against speeders and infantry.

BTW, 8 spiders will average over 3 dead marines in one shooting phase, and cause a torrent check, and shread any av11 or less tank.

Why would you take brightlances on all your guardian squads.

Because Im an IG player at heart, and I know what BS3 means... 9 cannons, is about 5 hits, thats maybe 2 or 3 real effects, Ill need 2 or 3 turns to get even 3 vehicles, and theres a pattern in non marine lists lately...

Mech Tau, Mech Eldar, Mech IG, (Mech Marines), Armored CO., Demon Princes, Speedfreaks, Landseepders, drop pods,, necrons, terminators,...

I don't expect more than 3 av13+ tanks, so 9 BL's are a bit of overkill, and EML's are just as good against lighter tanks.

I do, I see vehicles all the time, and 3 or more.  Not really (overkill) and yes, but so?

If you do a couple scatter laser squads, they would be better against speeders and infantry.

Yea heavy 4 is very impressive, I thought that too.

BTW, 8 spiders will average over 3 dead marines in one shooting phase, and cause a torrent check, and shread any av11 or less tank.

and kill themselves during the game, and risk being assaulted, and why would I care about AV11< when I have 9 Lances?

3 of the lances are bs 4.

Also, do you really see more than 3 av13+ vehicles, because for 12 or less, the missile launcher is a better buy (cheaper, same str).

But you forget that bright lances have a magic AP2 tag on them...not shabby against assault cannon toting terminators. For example.

I still fail to see what's bad about the Warpspiders. I mean AV <11 aren't meant to be shot at by BS3 lances, are they?

Greets
Schepp himself

BTW, 8 spiders will average over 3 dead marines in one shooting phase, and cause a torrent check, and shread any av11 or less tank.

and kill themselves during the game, and risk being assaulted, and why would I care about AV11< when I have 9 Lances?

Augy, why do you keep coming back to the '1 in 6, average one lost model if you double-jump every single turn in the game' chance as such a huge detriment?  I don't get it.  They're still an amazingly flexible unit that can engage any target T6 or lower, AS 3+ or higher, that doesn't have wrap-around armor.  That's a crapload of targets that they're effective against.

Good positioning will make a counter-assault fairly unlikely.

Not every Eldar list has 9 Lances in it.  They might be a bad choice in your army makeup, but that doesn't make them a bad choice for everyone.

Fair enough.

I suppose I have an over developed sense of loathing for unit types that can kill themselves with their own gear.  I have the same opinion of the plasma rifle/cannon, but because it's so powerful (rifle) I use it anyway, perhaps for spiders it is the same.

It's a fairly legitimate comparison. Both are powerful enough to be worth the risk.  Especially since Spiders don't need to do their second jump every turn.

Always liked the idea of a stupid yo-yo Hawk army, just as a gimmick to annoy players at my club and remind them of why they hate Eldar.

Damn GW. I won't be using my Slicing Orbs of Xandros any time soon. I was so disapointed that they didn't get a rules update.  They are so totally underpowered!  I guess they'll just sit on my shelf collecting dust.

What?

Tongue in cheek - but I will answer it as a serious comment. Because It can be done

You will have to model up and do your own rules for Slicing Orbs*, and for the Xandros craftworld which has never been given a specific colour scheme.

How about a counts as Howling Banshees on miniatures wielding two power scythes.. Mayber even use Halrequin rules.

*IIRC they were Swirling Orbs of Xandros.

Orlanth: Swirling Orbs just makes 'em sound like their wielding urinal pucks. Urinal pucks that REND!