Dropping IG Platoon command squads but not the infantry squads......?

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**Lordhat**

Posted By Beast on 06/14/2007 2:59 PM
Afrika, I don't think you will have a problem in the US with drop troops. I think the GW guy in the UK was just out-to-lunch. Everyone I have ever discussed Doctrines with agrees that DT platoons can be split up and brought in via DS. I really wouldn't worry about it too much. The rules are actually really clear (thankfully) and anyone with half a brain will be able to come to the same conclusion.

LOL he's probably been fully indoctrinated (brainwashed) in the the G.W. corporate line, and so, called the droolzboyz hotline.

**Frazzled**

Wow several of you are being quite hostile. Its one thing to site your reasons and why he is or is not off. Its quite another to insult the guy, especially this much over a relatively minor issue.

I'm happily surprised he replied back...twice. While I might disagree with the ruling its a clear ruling and, if one were attending, one could easily adjust theitr strategy.

**Stu-Rat**

Well, as I've said before neither of these ways is the way I play it.

"Any Guard Infantry unit (without a Chimera transport) or Sentinel squadron may Deep Strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally."

I read that as you may deepstrike any individual unit (let's say, for example, a single Infantry Squad of a regular Infantry Platoon). However, there's nothing to say that FOC it comes from can break the conventional rules on deployment. Thus if you hold that one unit in Reserve to deepstrike, you must also hold the rest of the Platoon in reserve. You roll for that FOC each turn, and when it comes on, you deepstrike what you wish and deploy the remainder regularly.

Let the flaming begin...

**Skrivus**

Stu-Rat said the following:

Well, as I've said before neither of these ways is the way I play it.

"Any Guard Infantry unit (without a Chimera transport) or Sentinel squadron may Deep Strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally."

I read that as you may deepstrike any individual unit (let's say, for example, a single Infantry Squad of a regular Infantry Platoon). However, there's nothing to say that FOC it comes from can break the conventional rules on deployment. Thus if you hold that one unit in Reserve to deepstrike, you must also hold the rest of the Platoon in reserve. You roll for that FOC each turn, and when it comes on, you deepstrike what you wish and deploy the remainder regularly.

The problem comes as said earlier, with deep strike and the reserve rules. Drop troops allows each indivual unit the option to deep strike, as long as the mission permits deep strike. When you choose a unit to deep strike, they may be put into reserves. You can't just choose put a unit into reserves without either a particular mission stating that units must start in reserve, or by using a special rule, such as deep strike, or when the reserves special rule is in effect.

Since drop troops gives each individual unit the option to deep strike, only those that the player has directed that will be deep striking can be put into reserves. Since the rest of the platoon can opt to not deep strike, they can't go into reserves.

If the whole platoon had to be put into reserves, the drop troops doctrine would just be given at the platoon level, not giving each individual squad the option.

Also, the Imperial Guard FAQ directly states that units can in fact deploy seperately, due to the light infantry doctrine. You still deploy the elements of the same platoon normally, and then the common elements from the same platoon would come in together one on roll for each FOC.

You only hold in reserve what you can legally put into reserve, and you can't put the regular squads into reserve, unless you directly stated that they will deep strike. The doctrine says that each unit has a choice of whether to deep strike, so they have 2 choices. Deploy normally or that squad deep strikes. There's no walking onto the board edge from the drop troops doctrine. As stated earlier by Yakface and others, "the more specific rule (drop troops doctrine, in this case) overrides the general rule.

Consider the example given by Don Mondo earlier in this thread,

HQ platoon in an Excaltion mission. Command squad in a Chimera must start in reserve, the sentinel squadron is always allowed to deploy (due to Scout rules), the Light Infantry Fire Support squad can infiltrate and the Drop Troop Special Weapon squad can Deep Strike. You would bring in both the SW and Cmd squads on a single die roll.

I can understand why there can be confusion about this rule, but these is the main points. The general rule holds, until a specific rule (such as drop troops) overrides it. You can't put squads into reserve that you're not deep-striking (unless a particular mission calls for it), and since each unit has a choice to deep strike, if some squads in a platoon deep strike, and some don't, then the deep strikers are allowed the deep strike. The non-deep strikers must deploy normally, and there's nothing saying otherwise.

**Stu-Rat**

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
The problem comes as said earlier, with deep strike and the reserve rules. Drop troops allows each indivual unit the option to deep strike, as long as the mission permits deep strike. When you choose a unit to deep strike, they may be put into reserves. You can't just choose put a unit into reserves without either a particular mission stating that units must start in reserve, or by using a special rule, such as deep strike, or when the reserves special rule is in effect.

Hmm... I don't see a problem. Your way you break the FOC deployment rules. My way, I do not and obey the deepstriking Reserves rules. I can (indeed, must) put the whole FOC selection (whatever it may be) into Reserves because there is said special rule.

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
Since drop troops gives each individual unit the option to deep strike, only those that the player has directed that will be deep striking can be put into reserves. Since the rest of the platoon can opt to not deep strike, they can't go into reserves.

I disagree. Every FOC choice must be deployed at the same time, unless a rule specifically overrules this rule, as in the case of the LI FAQ.

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
If the whole platoon had to be put into reserves, the drop troops doctrine would just be given at the platoon level, not giving each individual squad the option.

Unfortunately not true. Does an HQ unit that has Sentinels suddenly gain the Scout ruling in Reserve games? No. So why should the rest of a platoon gain deepstriking when only one unit has it?

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
Also, the Imperial Guard FAQ directly states that units can in fact deploy seperately, due to the light infantry doctrine. You still deploy the elements of the same platoon normally, and then the common elements from the same platoon would come in together one on roll for each FOC.

No, that's not true. It states that units within one FOC can deploy separately if some of them have the LI doctrine. That's a big distinction from what you claim.

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
You only hold in reserve what you can legally put into reserve, and you can't put the regular squads into reserve, unless you directly stated that they will deep strike.

Yes, you can. The rules clearly state that one FOC must be deployed at one time, unless a specific rule states otherwise. LI does. Scout does. Drop Troops does not.

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
As stated earlier by Yakface and others, "the more specific rule (drop troops doctrine, in this case) overrides the general rule.

Two problems with that argument. One, there's no such rule anywhere in the book. Two, there is no specific ruling here.

Posted By Skrivus on 06/15/2007 9:13 AM
The non-deep strikers must deploy normally, and there's nothing saying otherwise.

Yes, they must. When you roll for the FOC choice to come on. There is nothing in the Drop Troops rule that says that you can split deployment of an FOC. There is nothing in the LI rule either, but that's been corrected in the FAQ.

For the record, I'm not trolling here. This is honestly what I believe and how I play the game.

**Ghaz**

Hmm... I don't see a problem. Your way you break the FOC deployment rules. My way, I do not and obey the deepstriking Reserves rules. I can (indeed, must) put the whole FOC selection (whatever it may be) into Reserves because there is said special rule.

Yes, you are breaking the deployment rules. If a unit is not Deep Striking then it does not have the option to be placed in Reserve. You are placing units in Reserve which have no rule that allows them to be there.

I disagree. Every FOC choice must be deployed at the same time, unless a rule specifically overrules this rule, as in the case of the LI FAQ.

And the FAQ did not give the Light Infantry the right to override that rule. It just clarified it. It was always there, just as it is for the Drop Troops doctrine.

So why should the rest of a platoon gain deepstriking when only one unit has it?

So why should the rest of the platoon be placed in Reserve whan only one unit has rules that allow it to be placed in Reserve?

No, that's not true. It states that units within one FOC can deploy separately if some of them have the LI doctrine. That's a big distinction from what you claim.

Sorry, but that is entirely true.

Yes, you can. The rules clearly state that one FOC must be deployed at one time, unless a specific rule states otherwise. LI does. Scout does. Drop Troops does not.

Yes, Drop Troops does. It says quite clearly that the unit can Deep Strike. That requires them to be placed in Reserve. There is your permission right there.

Two problems with that argument. One, there's no such rule anywhere in the book. Two, there is no specific ruling here.

Wrong on both counts. Specific rules do override general rules and there is a specific ruling here.

Yes, they must. When you roll for the FOC choice to come on. There is nothing in the Drop Troops rule that says that you can split deployment of an FOC. There is nothing in the LI rule either, but that's been corrected in the FAQ.

Wrong again. You've yet to provide a rule that allows a unit that is not Deep Striking to be placed in Reserve. Secondly, the FAQ did not change any rules. It simply clarified them. Light Infantry has always allowed units to Infiltrate and Drop Troops have always allowed units to Deep Strike regardless of what the other units that occupy the same slot on the Force Organization slot are doing.

**Flagg07**

@ Stu-

How do you set up a CHQ made up of:
JO with flag and HI
SWS with DT
SWS- no Docs
HW Sqd with LI
HW Sqd- no Docs

We both agree that the LI HWS would be able to infiltrate.
We agree the SWS would be able to Deep Strike.

Please show me how I would keep the other "UNITS" in reserve.

**Skrivus**

That's been the way I have always played it and how I've seen many other Guard players play it.

Just as Ghaz, myself, and many others have been saying here, there is no legal rule that allows you put Guard infantry squads into reserves if they choose not to deep strike. Only the units who deep strike are in reserves, the other units must be deployed normally because they cannot be in reserves (due to not electing to deep strike).

Posted by Stu-Rat
Unfortunately not true. Does an HQ unit that has Sentinels suddenly gain the Scout ruling in Reserve games? No. So why should the rest of a platoon gain deepstriking when only one unit has it?

You're only reinforcing my point, that the sentinels deploy seperately from the HQ, because of Scouts rule. If a single unit in a platoon elects to deep strike and the other units do not deep strike, then Drop Troops allows that individual unit to deep strike. That deep striking unit then goes into reserves to deep strike. The rest of the unit chose not to deep strike, therefore they cannot go into reserves.

**Reecius**

The rule is explicit:

"Any Guard Infantry unit (without a Chimera transport) or Sentinel squadron may Deep Strike if the mission permits. Other units [B]must deploy conventionally."

I dont see how there is any room for argument. Any unit MAY deep stirke if the mission permits. It does not say that every unit MUST deepstrike if the mission permits. Units are defined as one group of models that must remain in unit coherency, etc. A platoon is comprised of three or more units. A platoon itself is not a unit but a larger FOC with a variable number of units contained within it.

OTHER UNITS MUST DEPLOY CONVENTIONALLY. Read that again. MUST deploy conventionally. Meaning that the non deepstriking units (which is optional due to the use of the word may) are required to start on the board and can not be placed in reserve, nor must they opt to deepstrike. It is as plain as day, the guy who made that ruling from GW didnt read the damn rule.

**Beast**

Indeed it is plain as day as Reecius and so many others have pointed out. The GW guy has been proven totally and completely incorrect in his 'ruling'. I use the word 'ruling' very loosely because it has the root word 'rule' in it- which the GW guy clearly did not bother to abide by.

**coredump**

OTHER UNITS MUST DEPLOY CONVENTIONALLY. Read that again. MUST deploy conventionally.

Yes, we all agree that is the rule. But your next sentences define 'conventionally' by your own terms.

I believe the counter argument is that the rules say you must keep the entire FoC in reserve, some can deepstrike, some deploy conventionally, meaning "come on from board edge."

Now I admit, at this point I am playing devils advocate, but I do see what he means, even if I don't agree.

**Ghaz**

Yes, we all agree that is the rule. But your next sentences define 'conventionally' by your own terms.

I believe the counter argument is that the rules say you must keep the entire FoC in reserve, some can deepstrike, some deploy conventionally, meaning "come on from board edge."

'Conventionally' means by the rules for the mission being played. That's what 'conventional' means. You use the ordinary (ie, conventional) rules for the mission when the other units deploy.

**Reecius**

I believe the counter argument is that the rules say you must keep the entire FoC in reserve, some can deepstrike, some deploy conventionally, meaning "come on from board edge."

Yes, as Ghaz says, conventionally means as it is played in every other escalation scenario, wherein infantry start on the board.

Only in 3rd ed scenarios did infatry walk on the board. that does not happen anymore in 4th ed.

**coredump**

But you are missing the point.

The *conventional* way for a unit to deploy *when they are held in reserve*, is to walk on at the board edge.
There are other, non-conventional ways, like DS and drop pods...

So the counter argument is that you have to have the entire FoC either in reserve, or not in reserve. If you have some of them in reserve to deep strike, then they all have to be in reserve.... and now they will deploy as conventional for reserve troops. (aka, walk on the board

Conventionally, infantry start on the board in escalation, unless you are holding them in reserve,then conventionally, they start by walking on.

**Reecius**

But you are missing the point.

The *conventional* way for a unit to deploy *when they are held in reserve*, is to walk on at the board edge.

Actually i think you missed the point. Infantry do not start in reserve. Conventionally, by the letter of the rules, they start ON the board. that would be conventional deployment. The rules for escalation state that all infantry start on board, unconventional deployment would be units held in reserve for deepstrike or infiltrators or due to a trasport vehicle. Therefore the premise of your counter point is flawed.

Now, in a mission where it specfically states that ALL units start in resreve, or something like that, then i would agree with you. But the basic mission in the book all use the same rules for escalation.

And no where does it say the entire FOC choice must be held in reserve if one unit is, it actually states the exact opposite in the rule for drop troops and for Light Infantry. In the Platon section it states that you roll for the entire section at the same time, not that they have to be held in reserve at the same time.

And by your logic, if you have a unit within the platoon that has a chimera, then the entire platoon must start in reserve? that is just silly as the rules state also that only units in a vehicle, jump infantry, clvary, bikes, monstrous creatures, etc., start in reserve.

**Ghaz**

But you are missing the point.

The *conventional* way for a unit to deploy *when they are held in reserve*, is to walk on at the board edge.

And you're missing the point that they're not allowed to be held in Reserve.

**don_mondo**

Posted By coredump on 06/16/2007 11:07 AM

OTHER UNITS MUST DEPLOY CONVENTIONALLY. Read that again. MUST deploy conventionally.

Yes, we all agree that is the rule. But your next sentences define 'conventionally' by your own terms.

I believe the counter argument is that the rules say you must keep the entire FoC in reserve, some can deepstrike, some deploy conventionally, meaning "come on from board edge."

Now I admit, at this point I am playing devils advocate, but I do see what he means, even if I don't agree.

Nope, GW has already made at least two rulings in the FAQs that state a single force org chart can be split. Tau Pathfinders and IG Light Infantry. In other words, the special rules in a codex can and do override the standard rules in the main rulebook.

**epidemicHEART**

I see the major problems to be this.

1: If you have two independent units you can chose to deep strike one and deploy the other normally even if they both could deep strike. The rule book says that Infantry squads/command squads function as independent units.
2. The rule book says that a platoon COUNTS as a single troops choice ON THE FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART when deploying. That is very clear, when tallying the number of troop choices you are using out of a possible 6 you count each platoon as one and you deploy each independent unit in a single platoon during a single phase. However this does not mean that each platoon IS a single troop choice when deploying, they simply COUNT as one.
3. When allocating that an independent unit for deepstriking you declare that it is deepstriking when you would normally deploy it and you move to your next unit.
4. This means that you ARE deploying the entire squad at the same time as the rule says you should do, only some are being deployed by physical placement onto the map, while others are being declared as drop troopers and allocated into reserves.
5. Even if that was not so, it would still be president that for an entire platoon to have to either all deepstrike or all deploy that they are no longer functioning as individual units as the rules say they do.
6. (This is where the rule contradicts itself and becomes unusable) As i proved in point 4 there is no rule against deepstriking some units and placing others physically on to the table; and yet the rule book clearly says that an entire platoon roles for reserves together; this is impossible because games workshop has not produced any rules for how a unit that is already deployed on the table can then deepstrike from reserves.
7. However; ignoring the fact that the rule is completely stupid because it contradicts that the squads FUNCTION as independent units and only COUNT as a single troop choice, I think it is safe to assume that what Games Workshop was trying to say (it always seems like they are trying to say somthing but failing at that) is that all aspects of a single platoon that are placed in reserves are rolled for at the same time (meaning if you have 2 squads in reserves and one already deployed the two are rolled for together).

Either way It is clear that this Andy character is applying his own views to warhammer as apposed to what the rules actually say, and by doing so has contradicted the rules in several manners. However if his stupid illogical and simply pointless interpretation of the rule is what Games Workshop intended in the first place then entire platoons should HAVE to take chimeras if the command squad takes one, and entire platoons must be TREATED and not COUNTED as single troop choices when allocating doctrines.

**Skrivus**

epidemicHEART said the following:

I see the major problems to be this.

1: If you have two independent units you can chose to deep strike one and deploy the other normally even if they both could deep strike. The rule book says that Infantry squads/command squads function as independent units.
2. The rule book says that a platoon COUNTS as a single troops choice ON THE FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART when deploying. That is very clear, when tallying the number of troop choices you are using out of a possible 6 you count each platoon as one and you deploy each independent unit in a single platoon during a single phase. However this does not mean that each platoon IS a single troop choice when deploying, they simply COUNT as one.
3. When allocating that an independent unit for deepstriking you declare that it is deepstriking when you would normally deploy it and you move to your next unit.
4. This means that you ARE deploying the entire squad at the same time as the rule says you should do, only some are being deployed by physical placement onto the map, while others are being declared as drop troopers and allocated into reserves.
5. Even if that was not so, it would still be president that for an entire platoon to have to either all deepstrike or all deploy that they are no longer functioning as individual units as the rules say they do.
6. (This is where the rule contradicts itself and becomes unusable) As i proved in point 4 there is no rule against deepstriking some units and placing others physically on to the table; and yet the rule book clearly says that an entire platoon roles for reserves together; this is impossible because games workshop has not produced any rules for how a unit that is already deployed on the table can then deepstrike from reserves.
7. However; ignoring the fact that the rule is completely stupid because it contradicts that the squads FUNCTION as independent units and only COUNT as a single troop choice, I think it is safe to assume that what Games Workshop was trying to say (it always seems like they are trying to say somthing but failing at that) is that all aspects of a single platoon that are placed in reserves are rolled for at the same time (meaning if you have 2 squads in reserves and one already deployed the two are rolled for together).

Either way It is clear that this Andy character is applying his own views to warhammer as apposed to what the rules actually say, and by doing so has contradicted the rules in several manners. However if his stupid illogical and simply pointless interpretation of the rule is what Games Workshop intended in the first place then entire platoons should HAVE to take chimeras if the command squad takes one, and entire platoons must be TREATED and not COUNTED as single troop choices when allocating doctrines.

There's a big problem with your arguments, especially part #4 on. You're ignoring what has already been established that specific rules override the general rules, and that non deep striking units cannot be placed into reserves unless they have elected to deep strike. .

The rules for Drop Troops doctrine take priority over the regular rules for infantry deployment. It overrides the basic infantry platoon rules. The drop troops doctrine is quite specific in saying that each unit has the option to deep strike.

Page 56 of the IG codex states

Any Guard Infantry unit (without a chimera transport) or Sentinel Squadron may deep strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally

I thought that this has been resolved, but once again it needs to be pointed out that you have the option to deep strike each unit, and that the other units must deploy conventionally. There is no rule that allows the non-deep strikers to just be placed in reserves and walk onto the board.

Also, check the grammar on part #5 of your post, normally I don't say things about grammar in people's posts (due to that I make minor grammatical errors from time to time), but I didn't know it would be "president" for an entire platoon that either has to deepstrike or all deploy. This mention is not something made to bash you or anything like that, it's just to mention it to you, so in the future you don't make the mistake again. It just makes your argument much weaker when you confuse "president" with a word like "precedent," such as that there is no precedent to support your arguments.

#6 of your claim, is exactly why the specific rule overrides the general rule in that circumstance, the non-deep strikers in the platoon deploy as normal, and then the deep strikers come in from reserves.

#7 of your claim is flawed. It doesn't contradict the rules, because you still deploy all the units in that one force-org chart, except for the units that elect to deep strike, because the Drop Troops doctrine specifically says that the particular unit goes into reserve to await deep strike, and the other units MUST deploy conventionally. Conventional deployment is placing the units on the table, as following the rules of deployment.

Just like others have in earlier posts, show me the rule allows you to put units into reserve, without deep strike and barring special missions. Just looking at the basic missions in the small rulebook.

**epidemicHEART**

First of all, thats a low blow attacking my grammer (spell check probably auto fixed it since I type my posts on word and then copy and paste), but secondly you seem to be twisting a lot of what I said into a manner that you find it easy to dispute.

The rule you are quoting "Any Guard Infantry unit (without a chimera transport) or Sentinel Squadron may deep strike if the mission permits. Other units must deploy conventionally" is really two rules.

Rule 1: any guard infantry unit or sentinel squadron may deep strike if the mission permits.

Rule 2: Others units must deploy conventionally

To me this is pretty clear and in favor of my argument that some units in a platoon may deepstrike if the mission permits and the others deploy conventionally.

And here is where you really twist what I'm saying, I said that when you ellect to deepstrike a unit you declare they are deepstriking and put into reserves, but I never implied that they could then function as reserves. I thought every one refered to units that were deepstriking as being in reserves, but for the sake of clarity lets just call it "an off table limbo where units who plan to deep strike wonder aimlessly waiting for turn two."

Anyways I don't really think you said anything contrary to any of my points, but maybe you did and I'm just not seeing it, if so feel free to point that out.

**Skrivus**

epidemicHEART:
Now seeing it, I see you do agree with the consensus and not some person trying to get this talk back up with unsupported claims. Sorry for the trouble.

First with the grammar, I explicitly said that I was merely pointing out a major mistake so that it could be corrected and I apologize if you were offended. Normally I wouldn't mention grammar mistakes, but it's a huge difference when you mix up "president" with "precedent." It makes your argument alot weaker when there are big mistakes like that.

The President butchering grammar doesn't establish a precedent for everyone else to do the same. (Sorry if this part seems like another attack, it's not at all. It's just a random sentence that popped up in my head when I put together the words "President" and "precedent".)

Sorry, getting off topic.

I wasn't sure if the issues you brought up in your earlier post were flaws you were pointing out in other people's arguments or points you yourself were trying to make.

This was due to starting your post off with "I see the major problems to be this" instead of referencing an earlier post or stating directly on what you wanted to convey. It makes it easier to follow along if you reference either an earlier post to reply to, or state immediately what it is you want the reader to get out of it, and then go into detail about the topic.

You could have started your post off with something like "I see the major problems with the arguments for requiring the entire platoon to be placed into reserve if a single unit deep strikes to be." Something like that, may be a bit long, but it states exactly what you're trying to convey to the reader.

I simply misunderstood the point of your post, because this thread had been dead for a while, and I thought at first someone was trying to bring it back up with no supporting evidence.

I do think however the rules are quite clear and specific. This rule really isn't stupid, it's just gets misinterpreted by people assuming the general rule takes priority over the more specific Drop Troops doctrine rule.

Sorry if I offended you
-Skrivus

**epidemicHEART**

The President butchering grammar doesn't establish a precedent for everyone else to do the same.

lol, no problem.