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yakface wrote:
The Demo charge rules themselves say they are move and fire weapons, so I'm not sure why you think it is illegal to move and fire with them.

The ideas I just had were priceless. One was a Guardsmen running up to a Chaos Marine Squad, standing still as bullets zing over his head, him fretting about standing and finally throwing the Demo Charge, which falls back on his head in a "Oh Fu-" moment. And I agree with you on this completely. Each Demo-Charge will go off if you throw them at the same time. Them scattering back is just a consequence. It's not like they'll fly back to the dead owners hands and say "Does Not Compute" if the guy next to him throws it first. Hell, that'd be a fun fight. "Throw the damn bomb Dave! Im sick of waiting for my turn! Gak! *Death*" Easier Point To Say: They still go off, even if one/two/three/etc. scatters back.

END.OF.STORY.

Yak, you can't tell us the rules are poorly written, make up your own idea, then tell others their own made up ideas are no good.

The DC rules are supposed to use the ordnance rules, but act like large blast weapons.

Which is it? I know the way players play it (my way) and the way GW tells you to play it (my way) and then there's what everyone else is saying.

I guess the food for thought didn't get very far.

Actually, the way players I've always seen play it is as multiple blast weapons (think of an IG team with more then one GL) that use ordinance templates and can scatter. If you think that's too far off the rules, it really doesn't seem it when you think that the DC rules explain that they scatter (and don't simply drop them off at the Ordinance Rules section which would be senquitar if they were intended to be used as ordinance weapons), though they do state they are used as Ordinance, which causes confusion, it does not state though, that one DC may be used at a time or anything similiar to such a statement.

Assuming "players" (or using that word so that it insinuates all players) play things "your way" or that GW is agreeing with you (obviously the rules are not finite enough to make such a statement). The rules as they are written do seem to support that the DCs work as a barage however.

This bring up another good question about Mortars; if a three mortar team destroys itself with their own mortars, do they finish their round of firing? It is unlikely that the first or second shell would kill off the whole team, but it is a possibility not covered in the rules. At least I don't think I've seen that.

Skin:

That's how most players DO play it.

Note the barrage rules about resolving each one in order. That usually means if your turn comes up, you're dead, then you shouldn't fire. I realize the rules are ambigious about this, but they do say resolve in order. If you scatter onto yourself and die, how do you measure range for the next guy? I've never seen anyone figure that one out.

Saying 'you just measure from the dead guy' doesn't work, cause the 40k rules don't say any such thing.

Mortar barrages might kill themselves, but they aren't resolved sequentially. You put down ALL the templates, then roll to hit partials, then wound.

In other words, in the first case the bag came back and blew up the next guy getting ready to heave his. In the second case, the rounds are 'in the air' and if they land on you there's no taking it back.

Here's another way to think about it:

If I fire a plasma cannon and overheat, and I have a apothecary nearby--can I wait and see if the next plasma cannon overheats and I fail to see which guy I want to use it on? No. That's why most players designate plasmaguns and plasmacannons firing separately, and if there's a overheat they are quite specific about which guy is taking the armor save....all because you must use a apothecary immediately, not when you want to.

Stelek wrote:
If I fire a plasma cannon and overheat, and I have a apothecary nearby--can I wait and see if the next plasma cannon overheats and I fail to see which guy I want to use it on? No. That's why most players designate plasmaguns and plasmacannons firing separately, and if there's a overheat they are quite specific about which guy is taking the armor save....all because you must use a apothecary immediately, not when you want to.

True, but if you have a devastator squad of 4 plasma cannons, you do not shoot each one at a time. You roll the hits all at once then apply any gets hot results and save accordingly. Demo charges are exactly the same thing. You declare both charges at the same time. At this point both are effectively "shot" and you then resolve each blast one at a time. The resolution of the templates has nothing to do with shooting, it's about wounding. You are right that if you blow a unit up before it fires then it does not get to fire. However, if you are throwing both charges at once then both "fire" at the same time. Again, resolution is for wounds, not hitting.

If you scatter onto yourself and die, how do you measure range for the next guy? I've never seen anyone figure that one out.

Thats simple, you've already measured the range at the time you threw the Demolition Charge. If it wasnt in range then it didnt get thrown.

I dont see the problem here.
1) you tell your opponant which unit of your's is shooting at which unit of their's
2) you tell your opponant what is being fired at them
3) you measure range
4) you roll to hit
5) you roll to wound
6) you make all aplicable saves
7) casualties are removed

The Demolition Charges were in play at step 2 and the guardsman that threw it isnt dead till step 6

Centurion.

I'd like to chime in that Catachans also use multiple demo charges..

Centurion, very well put. (More effort than I was willing.)

dakkalad: I think you missed my point--I was stating there is yet another game mechanic that requires you to immediately make a decision when you fire blast templates.
People seem to think everything is done simultaneously, and they are correct except for blast templates.

Now that we all agree most people ignore the poorly written rules (the RAW) and play the demo charge as a large blast that scatters--you really shouldn't be picking and choosing which part of the blast rules you do or do not like.

The KISS principle applies here for most gamers:

It's a blast, except it scatters.

That's it! Easy! Anything else, is a pain in the ass!