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noise marines are equally good on the move as they are standing still. moving them 6" and shooting will get you to most objectives while killing stuff. alternatively you can put a couple of squads in rhinos. if you do this take the blastmaster out since you wont be needing them as much. i wuldnt do this with more than 2 squads of noise mariens though, since youll lose out on the extra shooting and additional anti-tank if you do.

as an aside i prefer plague marines as objective holders over noise marines. once you get them in cover theyre almost impossible to budge.

Spellbound wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:You dont seem to want any help so why post here?

Just so you get to defend crappy choices? If you want a fun amy, go for it.

No, I want help, but I want constructive criticism. "You shouldn't divide your obliterators up, that will really hurt you in kill point scenarios" is good advice.

"Chosen suck." Isn't.

"A sorceror would allow you to take two psychic powers, like wind of chaos, so you're more effective up close, without getting shot." Is good advice.

"Lesser daemons are worthless." Isn't.



So the 200 point marine squads should be scrapped for more noisemarines? I'm out of sonic blasters at 6 unfortunately, but I have like 11 more blastmasters. Making a squad of 8 Noisemarines [bleh... Khorne....] with a blastmaster is also 200 points, and would that be better? I suppose it's only a lack of 2 more models to guarantee they never run, and hope that the blastmaster does more killing than the plasma and heavy bolter would.

I'm worried about objective-grabbing though. What's supposed to move forward and get objectives if everything I have is sitting back and shooting, then?

Too bad that one of the long worded "constructive" deals are wrong tho, and the short ones are more accurate.

*Dividing obliterators is bad, point there. You might split them to be able to shoot at a few diffrent targets or not have them all destoryed in one go.(usually by flanking stealers or the like)

*Chosen suck, is true. They wont really add something you need for quite an expensive price. About the only reason to use these guys is to get infiltrated hwy weapon on the board and maybe use as a DS homer.

*A sorceror with familiar and full kit + a supporting squad will cost alot and draw fire to destroy it most of the times. The demonprince will also draw fire but is quite limited to anti tank so is much more worth it. Also, if you ready have one, its better to have a second to help absorb the pain. They may also gang up on someone after a dual-lash wich makes them even more effective in pair. The biker lord just suck, expensive, fragile and with a chance to do nothing.

*Lessen demons ARE worthless. Unless you know you are facing tau/IG and bring a total CC summon list. They are extremly easy KP, they must arrive near your icons and they cant really do anything in those small squads.

Also, the debate about CSM vs Cults is as old as the codex, with a huge mayority favouring cults 24/7. If you look around you will find it, but generally thats because of fearless and special upgrades for just a small price more then the CSM+Icon cost.

Blood Feeder is a bad Idea

2d6 A that sounds sweet roll a 1 and it's game over.

The discussion began to digress a bit; Khorne Berzerkers are not in the list.

Well, I equip my Noise Marine squads either with sonic blasters, they are anti-light infantry, or give them a Rhino and take an AC with power weapon, doom siren.
In the 5th ed, blastmasters are nice for static units when they automatically hit, don't they?
Moreover, in the 5th ed, Rhinos become a more viable option since troops disembark from a destroyed tank do only have to make a pinning test.
My experience from two tourneys recently was that small NM squads get easily killed if exhibited too early in the game.
And larger squads are very costly. This leads to a trade-off and the wish to include some cheap troops, like Daemons.

I found that Raptors don't cut it in cc. With an appropriate mark, they are slightly better than Assault Marines.
I'd take a squad of 6 with 2 meltas; this squad is cheap and can be flexibly used.

You dont seem to want any help so why post here?

Just so you get to defend crappy choices? If you want a fun amy, go for it.

That is a pretty unfair statement.

Just take a look at his modified list and you can see he obviously took a great deal of suggestions into consideration, has vastly improved his list while still keeping the fluff choices that are important to him.

Just because he does not bow down and worshipfully aceed to Stelek's every proclimation of wisdom from on high does not mean he is not willing to accept help.

Sorry for the tone, crappy day at work, crappy day at home, but still that was not a fair criticism.

Spellbound: Possessed have a maximum unit size of twenty.

A unit of ten with an Icon of Khorne will have four attacks on the charge, so let's assume 40 attacks, 20 hit (on average, and the dice will deviate from the average), 13 wound, 2 saved. Receiving a charge they'll only get three attacks each, for 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 2 saved.

A unit of ten Berzerkers will also have four attacks on the charge, for 40 attack dice. 27 hit, 18 wounded, 3 saved. On the receiving end, they get 30 attack dice, 20 hit, 13 wounded, 2 saved.

A Khorne Lord with a Bloodfeeder has 7/36 chance of doing nothing, and hence a 29/36 chance of doing between 9-17 attacks, 2/3s hitting, 1/2 wounding, and no saves on a charge. The player is most likely to roll a 7, so 12 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wounds, and no saves.

A unit of thirty Orks armed with Sluggas will have 120 attacks, 60 hit, 30 wounds, 20 saved against either Possessed or Berzerkers that they attack. If they are charge, only 90 attacks, 45 hit, 15 wounds, and 10 saved against either Possessed or Berzerkers.

Except that Possessed, Berzerkers, and Chaos Lords will all strike first, so against the Possessed, on average 19-22 Orks will attack. Against the Berzerkers, on average only 15-19 Orks will attack. On average, of course.

The Possessed are more likely to survive any returning Power Klaw attacks. And, on average, the Berzerkers will get ten Bolt Pistol shots in before charging, so they'll have a start with 10 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, no saves.

And that is, of course, given the charitable assumption that a mob of 30 Ork Boyz will somehow make it across the table unscathed by fire, and fire is terribly useful against them - Flamers, and particularly Heavy Flamers, just devour Orks. A Chaos Terminator Squad with Combi-Weapons (Flamers) and a Heavy Flamer will slaughter Orks.

I can't imagine ever really giving a heavy flamer to chaos terminators though.... I don't know, maybe in a 10-man squad that already had an autocannon it might be an ok idea, but to completely sacrifice long range fire seems silly.

Regardless, khorne won't be showing his red face in this list, so how well a khornate unit does charging orks is a bit off topic.

I'm starting to think I might drop the raptors as well. Mobility isn't really that useful if A) the squad can't take objectives anyway and B) the enemy is moving towards the objectives just like I am. I've enjoyed their ability to get where I need them to go up until now, but I keep thinking about the chosen and how they're a better assault unit than the raptors [they just ARE] and possibly how some terminators might work out better. They'd give more close-range firepower AND harder hitting assault than the raptors, at the cost of mobility.

What do you all think, in the second list, of dropping the lord and the raptors for as many terminators as I can get?

I can't imagine ever really giving a heavy flamer to chaos terminators though.... I don't know, maybe in a 10-man squad that already had an autocannon it might be an ok idea, but to completely sacrifice long range fire seems silly.

Not in 5th. Remember you can drop those terminators using an icon exactly where you want them. One extra AC does not do much, but a pinpoint dropped Heavy Flamer can get rid of units that would otherwise be very tough to shift with shooting in 5e. The ability to ignore cover saves goes way up in value in the new world of 5e 40k.

Yea well it's not like the AC is that amazing any ways

Bigtmac68 is right Heavy Flamer = Rape Cover saves

Termie Idea would be cool

What about anti-tank, though? The autocannon
isn't the best tank hunter in the world, but it was always nice as a backup to pop annoying vypers and the like that try to run away. I guess I could include a couple combi-plasmas and save them for such situations.

Speaking of flamers, I like how the army preview sheet said witchhunters improved with 5th because flamer templates no longer had partials! Go go GW!

What about anti-tank, though? The autocannon
isn't the best tank hunter in the world, but it was always nice as a backup to pop annoying vypers and the like that try to run away. I guess I could include a couple combi-plasmas and save them for such situations.

Depends on the role you intend your termies to play. If you want them there to get rid of hard to shift enemies then heavy flamer is your guy, if they are there for firesupport then AC. To the point though, fire support is not a terminator units strong suit. If you want more fire support there are many much cheaper ways to add it.

The strong suit of terminators is the ability to pop in through d/s and break up an enemy firebase, or pop in as a counter assault unit to defend your own. If you are short on anti tank, get that elsewhere and let the termies do the job they are best at.

Probably right in that regard. I'm used to Imperial Terminators being versatile and able to handle all enemies with dual assault cannons. Chaos termies are actually a very new addition to my army, and they don't seem to do as well of a job being jacks of all trades.

Termies with combi-plasmas can get almost every job done.
Good decision to replace the Raptors. A small Raptor squad with 2 meltas for tank hunting would make sense, but larger squads don't.

Chaos Termies are 35 point wonder puppies.

Combi weapon + terminator = good.

Chaos Termies are definitely purpose built units, with the icons ability to bring them in with pin point accuracy, they can be effective and if you don't go nuts with extras are relatively cheap. Also with the new wound allocation, giving a few combis, and an icon can allow you to dump all of the high ap shots in a combination volley on one guy increasing thier survivability.

I wonder if I have any plasmagun bits hanging around to make combi-weapons out of.

Let's see then...

HQ
Lash prince - 155

Troops

6 Noisemarines, 3 sonic blasters, blastmaster - 175

6 Noisemarines, 3 sonic blasters, blastmaster - 175

5 Noisemarines, Blastmaster - 140

10 CSM, icon of chaos glory, meltagun, flamer, Champion with powerfist - 215 in a rhino with EA - 50

10 CSM, icon of chaos glory, meltagun, flamer, Champion with powerfist - 215 in a rhino with EA - 50

Elites
10 Chaos terminators, Icon of Slaanesh, 2 chainfists 2 powerfists ,2 combi-meltas, 2 combi-flamers, 2 heavy flamers, 3 aspiring champions with dual lightning claws
- 455

Heavy Support
3 Obliterators - 225

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession - 145

Total: 2000


I already think the terminators are too expensive, but I was just dumping in there what models I have. In actuality I still need to make the heavy flamers, as currently I have autocannons. I'm also thinking I don't need those powerfists, and it would be a waste of the icon. I'm just concerned about getting in combat with a wraithlord or dreadnought, but 2 chainfists should be enough for that by themselves, and I should make shooting those a priority.

And I think my dropping the lesser daemons idea in favor of rhinos is even better now, in order to get the terminators where I want them. I've still got 5 troops choices to grab objectives with, and if I take out anything heavy in the first couple turns, the noisemarines can fire on the move while approaching in the endgame.

Would a unit of 10 terminators with just the icon, 2 heavy flamers, 2 chainfists, and 4 combi-weapons [375] be a better buy? I've never felt let down by purchasing lightning claws, really.

those terminators are far too expensive.

you need to drop the chainfists to powerfists. they do basicall the same job except against AV14. if youre that worried about it just take one. you should have 2-3 poerfists per 5 terminators, so 4-6 powerfists in a 10 man squad is good.

theres no point having 3 champions. the extra attack isnt really worth it. you can save 30 points right there.

im constantly of 2 minds about lighting claws. i think that they are good if you have a quick way of delivering terminators, such as a landraider, but not so much otherwise.

if you intend to deepstrike them then theyre is no point. power weapons\fists and combi-weapons are better because of the extra shooting. if you drop them all you save an additional 30 pts.

if you drop the champions, their lightingclaws and change the chainfists to powerfists your terminators cost 385, which is a bit more reasonable. you can spend the points you save on more noise marines and sonic blasters.


what role are you intending those CSM to fill? if you want then to take and hold objectives a flamer and a plasma gun would probably be better. they extra range and extra shots a plasma gun provides would prove more benificial while defending an objective.

By the way, there is no need to specify what combi-weapons you are using.
The Termies should take on enemy nasties threatening your troops or take on enemy troops;
10 Termies form a good kill point denial unit.

With the exception of kill points, I would personally prefer two units of 5 termies to one unit of 10.

Just gives you more flexibility and less of a chance that bad reserve rolls will leave you with such a signifigant portion of your army stuck waiting in orbit.

Just a thought though, as I do like the image of such a monster unit laying the hammer down on the enemy .

FOR THE PLEASURE OF THE DARK PRINCE, DIE IN BLESSED AGONY, SERVANTS OF THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!!!!

heh heh

Oh no, if I'm giving them the mark of Slaanesh, it's gotta be 10. I'm infamous for failing morale checks. If I go with 5, I use the mark of undivided so I can reroll it. I've failed that Ld 10 with a reroll check more times than I care to count.

Ideally, those CSM units would be workhorse units, moving forward and providing, if nothing else, bodies to help the terminators out. 10 terminators dropping down and firing seems like a lot, but I like to go overboard - I'm thinking using a squad's icon to drop down, that same squad unloading from the rhino, and the other squad's rhino booking it 12" over and unloading to also dump massive amounts of firepower. Two rapid-firing CSM squads and a full terminator squad should really make a mess of something, and the rhinos will make a wall as always.

Originally the squads had plasma gun and heavy bolter, but they can't shoot the plasma and then assault, so I went with melta and flamer. The meltas are also back-up tank killers up close should my long range firepower fail [which I suspect it will, given the new scatter rules].

Back to the terminator loadout, something in the back of my mind, outside of army list efficiency, is well... cost. I don't want to have autocannon models I never use, and likewise heavy flamer models that get put in the box. Is a squad with 1 of each a good compromise, or in y'all's experience [since like I said terminators are a fairly new addition to my army] do heavy flamers really just outshine autocannons in terms of punch for points or how well they do their job?

Oh yeah, and 1 more thing - anyone noticed how a terminator aspiring champion gets as many attacks as a chaos lord? It's shameful, this new codex. It really is. I was thinking to myself how neat it would be to add a chaos lord to this unit someday like in an apocalypse game.... and realized I could get a WS4 version of the same thing for only 10 points. Appalling!