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Kaaihn wrote:

Crucius wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:
The Raw is treating models outside of the firing arc of the sponson as being out of range, not giving them cover.

Actually, this makes perfect sense to me, and if its not what RAW specifies, its what I'd prefer to houserule.

What it comes down to then, is whether or not RAW considers the range of the weapon to be not only a linear distance, but also its firing arc.

If it does, then if you can see any model in a squad you can shoot as if you could see the whole squad.
If it doesn't, then depending on how many models you can see, the unit may get some form of cover save.

Could someone with a rulebook on hand confirm this?

I see nothing in my rulebook to confirm that models outside the firing arc are considered out of range. Quite the opposite, I see the rulebook treating models outside the firing arc as being out of LOS.

You trace LOS from the weapons mounting point, and then down the barrel. If you are at the edge of your arc, you trace the line out, and anything on the side of that line that is outside the arc would thus be out of LOS for that gun.

Alright, makes perfect sense to me.

RAW clearly states that models outside the firing arc are out of LOS, so, assuming enough of them are out of the arc, the unit gets a cover save.

As for the hull not being able to give a cover save, I think this is a case of specific > general, where specific is the rules for vehicle arcs, and general is the rules for LOS.

A couple of related things I was wondering.
Note: For all of these questions count cover as 100% obscured (i.e. not in LOS)

If a squad is in plain sight, but only one model is in range, you can shoot at the whole squad and wound as if it was in range. Does this count for placing templates (i.e. can you place a template on models which are out of range when some models in that squad are in range)?
If a squad is behind cover AND out of range with the exception of one model which is both in plain sight and in range, does the unit get a cover save?
If I have a template weapon and I want to shoot at a squad, some models of which are in cover, others within LOS, can I place the template on the models I cannot see?
If I have a template sponson which I want to shoot at a squad, some models of which are out of the firing arc, can I place the template on any of the models out of LOS?

Um.... I'm following this, and it seems that as it's written, most of the time a unit not otherwise in cover will not get cover saves from the tank itself.

Yes, the rulebook says count each sponson weapon as a separate model. But the three models are all part of the same unit, so they work collectively.

So in the case of say a 10-model unit spread out evenly, point your tank at them. The tank is now essentially being treated as a 3-model heavy weapon unit. One model, the turret, sees the entire enemy unit. No cover. Another model, a sponson, sees say.... four of them, off to one side leaving 6 out of LOS. So that model has the majority of the enemy unit in cover [since majority out of LOS means units gain cover]. Now we check the other sponson and find the same story. It can see maybe 4 on the other side, leaving 6 out of LOS and thus in cover.

Checking the rulebook, more than half the firing squad has at least half of the enemy unit as in cover, meaning the enemy unit gets a cover save.

HOWEVER, if we were to turn the tank slightly to the side, we get this hypothetical situation:

One model, the turret, still sees the entire enemy unit and thus no cover. One sponson sees only a single guy, on the very edge, leaving the rest of the unit out of LOS and thus in cover. The other sponson, though, can now clearly see 6 or 7 guys, leaving the rest out of LOS and thus in cover. Now, 2/3 of the members of the firing unit can see more than half of the enemy. All weapons still get to fire, and the enemy unit gets no cover save from the tank.

But honestly I'd slap anyone who tries this. This is along the same lines as the self-generating cover save grid, which my FLGS has outlawed.